[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by vtirocz

That's interesting. Based on the old magazine road test #s, I thought the regular 6th gen SS would have an advantage on a road course. Maybe the tighter autocross type courses are a different story.

Here's one that I was referencing for lap times and performance #s: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/...m3-comparison/

The Coyote S197 Mustang could stay tit-for-tat with an e90 M3 on a road course, so an Alpha chassis Camaro should be significantly faster. Autox is a much different game though. Size, weight, and tires are the biggest determining factor. That's why Miatas are so good at it.

[Hasti]

Originally Posted by apexit53

with the m3 in there the ss, v6 1le don't have a chance anyway. I am sorry but I spent two years chasing down the top m3 and well I did it once or twice at locals... the M3 is just too good and the Camaro is just harder to drive consistently.

Now all I know and have heard is this move for the track ponies right now is just a proposal... With that said, look at FS... and look at BS. More 1LEs, GT350s, probably the mach 1 as well when it comes out. More people with the "track cars" are more likely to autocross and do events like that maybe? also if the moved them I bet there is a chance the current FS cars would be moved to another class? who knows honestly. All I know is I bought the car I wanted(cause I cant afford a gt3 RS) and ill race whatever class its in!

Unless something crazy happened on different days i saw the m3 going faster then the 1les at nationals, wouldnt a m3 move to B street make more sense or do m3 owners have to much "influence"

[5inn]

Originally Posted by Hasti

Unless something crazy happened on different days i saw the m3 going faster then the 1les at nationals, wouldnt a m3 move to B street make more sense or do m3 owners have to much "influence"

It's hard to compare Lincoln results on different days, the weather is often too different.

[Msquared]

In another thread, I suggested that one of two things should happen:

1. E90/92 M3s get moved to BS, and the new Supra and maybe the M2 Competition get moved to AS. Then leave the non-track-pack pony cars in FS.
2. Move the track-pack ponies into FS and keep the other cars already there.

The premise for #1 is that the M3 is an obvious overdog in FS and it does not fit the intended concept of the class at all: the best one was a $70k car in 2013 and good used ones today still cost as much or more as a brand new SS 1LE. Most people aren't willing/able to pay that much for a car that's already at least 8 model years old. That's naturally going to drive down entry numbers in FS compared to all those who own recent SS or GT pony cars but who don't want to bother entering a class where they really have no chance against an elite German car. The E90 M3 seems to be a pretty good match for an SS 1LE, so it would fit in BS. The new Supra seems like an AS car in every way, although we won't have a really good idea until Nationals this year, most likely.

The premise for #2 has been pretty well stated already. The bottom line there is that the 1LE is really just an option package for the Camaro, so it isn't especially rare or unobtainable and could be thrown in FS with the other ponies. The GT350 is a different kettle of fish, though: pretty expensive and relatively rare (only a few thousand each year, and production has ended), as well as explodey. But maybe the new Mach 1 will solve that. The obvious problem with this plan is that it doesn't get the non-track-pack ponies back in class.

Like others, I don't understand the point of moving everything from FS to BS and reinventing FS as something completely different. That doesn't solve anything.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Msquared

The bottom line there is that the 1LE is really just an option package for the Camaro, so it isn't especially rare or unobtainable and could be thrown in FS with the other ponies.

I disagree, too much difference in tire size. Unless rules are changed so base models are allowed to run the track-pack tire sizes it's not even close to fair.

[5inn]

It seems pretty unlikely for them to move the M3 to BS imo. I’m not sure there’s been an ‘old’ car that did so well in a class for so long and then being bumped up. I feel like almost always a new car is added to that cars class to dethrone it instead.

I personally think it’s okay if the normal SS are outgunned. Not every car can be the best one in its class.

If you haven’t already I definitely recommend writing a letter to the SEB and sharing your thoughts. I’m hoping they’ll be some sort of decision soon, though at this point I expect it to be effective next year.

[MatthewAMEL]

If anyone caught the SCCA Town Hall last night, this issue was addressed directly by Mike Cobb, Heyward Wagner and Bob Davis (SEB Chair).


He said the issues they are trying to address are:


1 - Solo has too many classes
2 - You often have to have a new car to be competitive in a class


As for the OP's post. That was just a proposal. Nothing has changed yet.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

I disagree, too much difference in tire size. Unless rules are changed so base models are allowed to run the track-pack tire sizes it's not even close to fair.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that an SS 1LE will completely outgun a regular SS. That's not my point. My point is that it's not completely unreasonable for SCCA to say that to run a competitive V8 Camaro you need to spring for the track pack (1LE) option. It's not exclusive. That certainly keeps current SS owners on the outside looking in, but that's also no different than the E90 M3 where you get wider wheels and wider track, lower ride height, and different calibrations for the damping and stability programming. I don't know if it's the best move to make, but it's a defensible one. It certainly doesn't make anything worse than it already is (except for entry numbers in BS), and it should provide more parity in the class that is currently dominated by low-production, expensive German car that hasn't been in production for eight years.

That said, I think the better move is bumping the M3 to BS. You could add a few numbers to that class, and then you have the chance to shore up FS numbers with SS and GT owners, of which there are probably over 100,000. Unfortunately, this isn't one of the proposals being studied. But if they did do this, then I'd want them to take a close look at the new Supra and M2 Comp to see if they aren't a better match for AS.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by MatthewAMEL

If anyone caught the SCCA Town Hall last night, this issue was addressed directly by Mike Cobb, Heyward Wagner and Bob Davis (SEB Chair).


He said the issues they are trying to address are:


1 - Solo has too many classes
2 - You often have to have a new car to be competitive in a class

I wish I'd been able to attend. Solo does have too many classes, but I don't think too many people think the problem is in Street. I think there's only one more Street (Stock) class now than there was the first time I ever attended an event in 1987, and that's SS. But back then, there was only Stock (now Street), Street Prepared, Prepared, and Modified. Now there five more levels of prep if you include CAM, Kart, and SSC. There are too many of those!

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Msquared

Don't get me wrong, I agree that an SS 1LE will completely outgun a regular SS. That's not my point. My point is that it's not completely unreasonable for SCCA to say that to run a competitive V8 Camaro you need to spring for the track pack (1LE) option. It's not exclusive. That certainly keeps current SS owners on the outside looking in, but that's also no different than the E90 M3 where you get wider wheels and wider track, lower ride height, and different calibrations for the damping and stability programming. I don't know if it's the best move to make, but it's a defensible one. It certainly doesn't make anything worse than it already is (except for entry numbers in BS), and it should provide more parity in the class that is currently dominated by low-production, expensive German car that hasn't been in production for eight years.

That said, I think the better move is bumping the M3 to BS. You could add a few numbers to that class, and then you have the chance to shore up FS numbers with SS and GT owners, of which there are probably over 100,000. Unfortunately, this isn't one of the proposals being studied. But if they did do this, then I'd want them to take a close look at the new Supra and M2 Comp to see if they aren't a better match for AS.

I'd agree with that a little more if the regular SS were allowed to run wheels and tires allowable on 1LEs, and Mustangs could run PP1 or PP2 sizes, but I find it more interesting to pit different cars that are capable of similar times together rather than try to group car types together. I'd rather see classing based on how fast the car is rather than what it looks like.

[Scargoes]

Can't you still update/backdate if the car is on the same line? Other than the eDiff, all the 1LE parts could be installed on a standard SS pretty easy.

What was the rule that aged out cars? At what chassis age does a car not qualify for Street(Stock) anymore? Or did they do away with that?

When I got back into solo with my Camaro, I said screw it with Street and went to CAM. I wanted to run with cars that were similar to mine, having the same hurdles my car has - weight, width, etc. I expected to be an also ran locally because I keep my car nearly stock (Camber Plates and 19x11s all around). I've done pretty well and decided to hit up Nationals for my first time this year. Totally expecting to be outgunned, I'll be happy if I can break mid pack. At least hoping to beat my co driver...

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

I disagree, too much difference in tire size. Unless rules are changed so base models are allowed to run the track-pack tire sizes it's not even close to fair.

Originally Posted by DaveC113

I'd agree with that a little more if the regular SS were allowed to run wheels and tires allowable on 1LEs, and Mustangs could run PP1 or PP2 sizes, but I find it more interesting to pit different cars that are capable of similar times together rather than try to group car types together. I'd rather see classing based on how fast the car is rather than what it looks like.

This is exactly my opinion, why can't you stay in Street class with options from your same car model?

Originally Posted by Scargoes

Can't you still update/backdate if the car is on the same line? Other than the eDiff, all the 1LE parts could be installed on a standard SS pretty easy.

What was the rule that aged out cars? At what chassis age does a car not qualify for Street(Stock) anymore? Or did they do away with that?

When I got back into solo with my Camaro, I said screw it with Street and went to CAM. I wanted to run with cars that were similar to mine, having the same hurdles my car has - weight, width, etc. I expected to be an also ran locally because I keep my car nearly stock (Camber Plates and 19x11s all around). I've done pretty well and decided to hit up Nationals for my first time this year. Totally expecting to be outgunned, I'll be happy if I can break mid pack. At least hoping to beat my co driver...

I really don't Autocross anymore and only track drive because autocross is kind of boring to me now, but this is exactly what i did the last time i autocrossed. The damn rules are way too picky (and most autocross guys are sticklers about them and absolutely will protest you), like i said above SSs and GTs should be allowed to run factory options from the track packages above them and remain in Street.

[5inn]

You can't update/backdate in Street class, and the cars are on a different line.

The 'sunset' rule is 30 years for Street class. I thought it was 25 but did some googling.

A car will remain eligible for National events through the end of the 30th
calendar year after the manufacturer-designated model year of the car.
This eligibility limitation applies only to the Street classes.

[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

This is exactly my opinion, why can't you stay in Street class with options from your same car model?

The rule basically is that if you want to do one, then you have to do them all. I think it's so that people aren't mixing and matching otherwise illegal parts and making an ultimately faster car than what came from the factory. Much like the "go away" price from a shop that doesn't want to do the work.