[LESS1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

When comparing the performance, MSRP to MSRP is the best bet because it represents what the manufacturer gives you for the price. Or it represents what the manufacturer has put into the car.

When the discussion turns to purchasing the car then you gotta compare real world pricing. 2015 - 2017 GTs were all selling way under MSRP for the most part. Camaros are selling for under MSRP. However the Shelbys were selling well above MSRP by a significant amount. An amount that could even cause a creditor to choose not to finance the car. Or you could say by an amount that you'd be able to buy the competing vehicle AND another vehicle. So in that comparison, even if Johnny somewhere claims he got his at MSRP, you cannot realistically look at MSRP.

If you say "hey dude, Ford built a car to compete with the ZLE and it costs $94K" then you are correct. If you say "hey dude, Ford built a car to compete with the ZLE and it costs $94K...but if you want to buy one you're probably gonna end up paying over $100K because of markups" then you are correct. Both pieces of info are necessary. How much does it cost compared to the competition and how much I can actually get it for.

And then we have this... https://www.thedrive.com/news/32180/...u-wrx-sti-s209

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by LESS1

And then we have this... https://www.thedrive.com/news/32180/...u-wrx-sti-s209

I could never justify giving dealers more money. They are already parasitic middlemen. They are all liars. It's just that some at least make you enjoy the lies.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by ZRacerLE

I could never justify giving dealers more money. They are already parasitic middlemen. They are all liars. It's just that some at least make you enjoy the lies.

There are a few good car dealers out there. Fortunately, I just recently found one of the good ones. However, as you mentioned most car dealers are out for a quick buck and deserve the reputation the industry has built for itself. A few years back I was in the market for a new track toy and the GT350R caught my eye. It didn't take long for me to drop this from the potential buy list. What a joke, dealers justifying the markup "due to market demand". What demand? Hell Frod builts these as fast as they could unload them, limited edition, really?

At least the Subaru in my previous post is limited to 209 units total, built exclusively for the US market. Is it worth 64K not sure, will it sell for more than 64K in 10 or so years? Probably. Check STI values for the craziness of owners and the $$$ they are willing to spend on a used STI. Similar to MKIV Supra owners, only STI is actually a great performing car that has won national and international races and championships both on and off-road that can stop and turn not just go fast in a straight line. I currently daily drive a Subaru Spec.B (less than 2k copies produced over 4 years for NA market) that I purchased over 3 years ago and it is worth more today than when I purchased it. Go figure.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by RageWorx

I remember running 11.7s and 11.8s (around 117-118 mph) my 16 A8 SS Stock with just a MT DR and watching the 2017 A10 ZL1s hit 12s all night (I know they are faster than that LOL!) but in the real world no one gave a crap that I didn't have a ZL1 because on that day/track I was faster/lighter (for way less) so who cares LOL. OK the SS will be out handled by the ZL1 in a road racing setting which again no one at this track cared about ... but lets not pretend that the SS is a slouch in this regard and the difference isn't light years away especially with some cheaper suspension/brake/tire upgrades to the lighter SS.

Back in my 5th Gen days I was running low 13s to high 12s. There was a guy in a 5th Gen ZL1 running 13.3s and couldn't get better than that. But he was new. I talked to him and told him to go out and get some more seat time. Same with the 6th Gen ZL1s. A little seat time and nothing else is all that is needed. My first time out in my 17 ZL1 my goal was 12.4...the car had just finished break in and I wanted to go easy on her and kinda get to know the feel of the car. I did 12.3 and 12.1. It was getting late by the third run and it was cool out and I was tired and aggravated. So my thrid run I messed up the launch and did a 13.5. My second time out the goal was 12.2. Even tho it was slower than the 12.1 I had already done I still just wanted to get more feel of the car and try different launch methods. I did a 12.2 and a 12 flat that night. Again, by the third run it was after 9pm and the track was a bit too cold and I was tired. That run was a 12.7. My third time out the goal was to do a 12 flat again. My first run that night was 11.8 and the second was 12 flat. Each of these runs were on stock tires at 32 psi with no launching, none of the race modes, no paddles. It was in D and I just let the car do all the work. To keep perspective, there were Hellcats on a tire running from 10.7 to 11 flat on those nights. A supercharged Roush GT was running 11.5s on a tire. My buddy has a supercharged 16 SS and he was in the low 11s as well. So it might have been that those guys at your track just needed more seat time or something. I don't think one night is enough to gauge how they did. You'd have to see how they did on subsequent nights to see if they improved or what. But basically my point is that it isn't difficult to do 11s in a 6th Gen ZL1. I figure most average guys should be between 11.4 and 11.8 while some of the better guys would be low 11s and high 10s. And it shouldn't take more than a few tries. I certainly am no racing expert and I got 11.8. If I can do it then anyone can.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

....and they still mention what just about every other review of the Camaro mentions. The cheap interior. I keep hoping they will update the materials as some of their current decisions are unforgivable.

I will take the "cheap" interior as long as I get the Alpha chassis. The interior does not seem all that cheap to me. Just boring. Ever sit in a 5th gen Camaro? Now if they could capture the show car vibe of the 5th gen with better quality materials that would be a home run.

Once you start driving a Camaro all that seems unimportant. You just get a "Permagrin" as they used to say.

But as far as the test goes the base ZL1 might fare better than the 1LE even in this test. The base ZL1 is faster than the 1LE except on a race track. The base ZL1 accords it self very well on a race track. And is an all day in the seat GT car. But just like the other two it is too fast to fully enjoy on the street.

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by LESS1

There are a few good car dealers out there. Fortunately, I just recently found one of the good ones. However, as you mentioned most car dealers are out for a quick buck and deserve the reputation the industry has built for itself. A few years back I was in the market for a new track toy and the GT350R caught my eye. It didn't take long for me to drop this from the potential buy list. What a joke, dealers justifying the markup "due to market demand". What demand? Hell Frod builts these as fast as they could unload them, limited edition, really?

At least the Subaru in my previous post is limited to 209 units total, built exclusively for the US market. Is it worth 64K not sure, will it sell for more than 64K in 10 or so years? Probably. Check STI values for the craziness of owners and the $$$ they are willing to spend on a used STI. Similar to MKIV Supra owners, only STI is actually a great performing car that has won national and international races and championships both on and off-road that can stop and turn not just go fast in a straight line. I currently daily drive a Subaru Spec.B (less than 2k copies produced over 4 years for NA market) that I purchased over 3 years ago and it is worth more today than when I purchased it. Go figure.

Those STIs are cool cars with a true racing pedigree.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by ZRacerLE

I could never justify giving dealers more money. They are already parasitic middlemen. They are all liars. It's just that some at least make you enjoy the lies.

Sounds like the Civic Type R to Mugen R to Mugen RR, it took them years to sell the handful built. Just like the guy selling the GN to Jay Leno... result in no sale because the car just was not worth it. I don't care if the Emporer of Japan himself drove the STI to my house, it ain't worth that kind of cash. Plus we all know the Emporer drives and Integra right (not kidding).

[oldman]

On a good prep surface, the 4th gen M6 could cut a 12.9 with stock GS-C tires. The Auto could do a 13.2. With free mods and a lid and converter, even the auto could do 12s as long as the track had an OK prep. We are talking plain LS1s here, the SS or WS-6 really did not add anything.

I have an Integra Type R... to my mind that is the collectible car from the late 90s. Rare beautiful, precision-made. I kept mine up for 20 years before giving it to my son, it is a DD with over 200K, but it has a lot of time and money put into it to make it look like a clean low mile car. The engine complartment looks stock but it has a full built engine / trans and wire tuck.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

I will take the "cheap" interior as long as I get the Alpha chassis. The interior does not seem all that cheap to me. Just boring. Ever sit in a 5th gen Camaro? Now if they could capture the show car vibe of the 5th gen with better quality materials that would be a home run.

Once you start driving a Camaro all that seems unimportant. You just get a "Permagrin" as they used to say.

But as far as the test goes the base ZL1 might fare better than the 1LE even in this test. The base ZL1 is faster than the 1LE except on a race track. The base ZL1 accords it self very well on a race track. And is an all day in the seat GT car. But just like the other two it is too fast to fully enjoy on the street.

Heck I took offense to cheap, the seats look just like my base SS seats, work and feel fine to me, maybe they should lose weight or sumting.... After 3 years the seat show NO wear, this car ain't an Audi jeezuss needs to help me.

[RageWorx]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Back in my 5th Gen days I was running low 13s to high 12s. There was a guy in a 5th Gen ZL1 running 13.3s and couldn't get better than that. But he was new. I talked to him and told him to go out and get some more seat time. Same with the 6th Gen ZL1s. A little seat time and nothing else is all that is needed. My first time out in my 17 ZL1 my goal was 12.4...the car had just finished break in and I wanted to go easy on her and kinda get to know the feel of the car. I did 12.3 and 12.1. It was getting late by the third run and it was cool out and I was tired and aggravated. So my thrid run I messed up the launch and did a 13.5. My second time out the goal was 12.2. Even tho it was slower than the 12.1 I had already done I still just wanted to get more feel of the car and try different launch methods. I did a 12.2 and a 12 flat that night. Again, by the third run it was after 9pm and the track was a bit too cold and I was tired. That run was a 12.7. My third time out the goal was to do a 12 flat again. My first run that night was 11.8 and the second was 12 flat. Each of these runs were on stock tires at 32 psi with no launching, none of the race modes, no paddles. It was in D and I just let the car do all the work. To keep perspective, there were Hellcats on a tire running from 10.7 to 11 flat on those nights. A supercharged Roush GT was running 11.5s on a tire. My buddy has a supercharged 16 SS and he was in the low 11s as well. So it might have been that those guys at your track just needed more seat time or something. I don't think one night is enough to gauge how they did. You'd have to see how they did on subsequent nights to see if they improved or what. But basically my point is that it isn't difficult to do 11s in a 6th Gen ZL1. I figure most average guys should be between 11.4 and 11.8 while some of the better guys would be low 11s and high 10s. And it shouldn't take more than a few tries. I certainly am no racing expert and I got 11.8. If I can do it then anyone can.

Oh I have no doubt I agree completely A 6th gen ZL1 should be very easy to run in the 11s... I knew my SS wasn't running faster than the ZL1s because it was the faster car but not to toot my own horn but seat time and driver mod 😎 What I was surprised about though was the delta between the SS and ZL1 was not as big as I thought it would be (I was trapping 118 stock and less weight most ZL1 were in the low 120-122 mph in same conditions so not real far off in real world).

Btw I was the other Supercharged 6th gen SS at ETown a few of those nights you mentioned (I had the Blue ECS SS and Vince had the Blue Eforce SS we met a few times at Etown).

Vince and I were both the first few 6th gen Camaros at Etown when they were released.... Then we were the first two supercharged 6th gen SS there... Just so happened both of our cars were Hyper Blue people couldn't tell our cars apart sometimes even ran very similar times at Etown.

-Jon

[oldman]

the Zl1 and the 1le come with a much stronger diff and axle set-up, both of which can get iffy at the drag race, especially with the m6. The GT 500 comes with a stronger LSD, shafts (all three). The Demon has a stronger case (don't know about the Hellcat) and both I believe have upgraded shafts. The Dodge setup is blowing the case apart, Dodge says it is caused by street launches and wheel-hop. I think it is caused by building a case out of aluminum... Um NO... and in fact laughable.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Back in my 5th Gen days I was running low 13s to high 12s. There was a guy in a 5th Gen ZL1 running 13.3s and couldn't get better than that. But he was new. I talked to him and told him to go out and get some more seat time. Same with the 6th Gen ZL1s. A little seat time and nothing else is all that is needed. My first time out in my 17 ZL1 my goal was 12.4...the car had just finished break in and I wanted to go easy on her and kinda get to know the feel of the car. I did 12.3 and 12.1. It was getting late by the third run and it was cool out and I was tired and aggravated. So my thrid run I messed up the launch and did a 13.5. My second time out the goal was 12.2. Even tho it was slower than the 12.1 I had already done I still just wanted to get more feel of the car and try different launch methods. I did a 12.2 and a 12 flat that night. Again, by the third run it was after 9pm and the track was a bit too cold and I was tired. That run was a 12.7. My third time out the goal was to do a 12 flat again. My first run that night was 11.8 and the second was 12 flat. Each of these runs were on stock tires at 32 psi with no launching, none of the race modes, no paddles. It was in D and I just let the car do all the work. To keep perspective, there were Hellcats on a tire running from 10.7 to 11 flat on those nights. A supercharged Roush GT was running 11.5s on a tire. My buddy has a supercharged 16 SS and he was in the low 11s as well. So it might have been that those guys at your track just needed more seat time or something. I don't think one night is enough to gauge how they did. You'd have to see how they did on subsequent nights to see if they improved or what. But basically my point is that it isn't difficult to do 11s in a 6th Gen ZL1. I figure most average guys should be between 11.4 and 11.8 while some of the better guys would be low 11s and high 10s. And it shouldn't take more than a few tries. I certainly am no racing expert and I got 11.8. If I can do it then anyone can.

I was very surprised by how easy and consistent my 16 SS A8 was. My very first pass after the 1,500 mile break in was a 12.3. Tires at 32 psi and just rolling into the throttle in sport mode.

My best every pass was a 12.2 and I once hot lapped consist 12.5 three in a row. I’m not a drag racer either.

I think the Alpha platform puts the power down extremely well and the lower power of the LT1 is its sweet spot. My 12.24 @116 mph moved off the Camaro6 fast list of 30 entries so that’s considered slow. The SS auto is a easy 12.0 car in the hands of a decent driver.

[oldman]

agreed, even on the M6. On a good road no-lift-shift the M6 can lay down some good times, the tire and chassis are perfectly matched. GM says 12.2 and 12.0, 0-60 4.2 and 4.0, actually, I believe give a break-in and a prep track .1 can be shaved off that an already phenominal time. We are talking about an 11 second car NA stone stock. You would need a fully blueprinted and prepped purestock hemi or exotic Chevy big block something (L88)to match those times. I'm not even sure if the 440-6 or GM corp or the Ram Air round ports ever broke the 11s. Under pure stock rules (blueprinted engine, 3" exahaust after the header, 1.5 CR compression bump, blue printed, stock size dot rubber, I'd expect the LT1 to do maybe 11.6.. so um yeh faster than any 60 or 70s Muscle car ever.. get about 22 to 25 MPG on the highway too.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by RageWorx

Oh I have no doubt I agree completely A 6th gen ZL1 should be very easy to run in the 11s... I knew my SS wasn't running faster than the ZL1s because it was the faster car but not to toot my own horn but seat time and driver mod 😎 What I was surprised about though was the delta between the SS and ZL1 was not as big as I thought it would be (I was trapping 118 stock and less weight most ZL1 were in the low 120-122 mph in same conditions so not real far off in real world).

Btw I was the other Supercharged 6th gen SS at ETown a few of those nights you mentioned (I had the Blue ECS SS and Vince had the Blue Eforce SS we met a few times at Etown).

Vince and I were both the first few 6th gen Camaros at Etown when they were released.... Then we were the first two supercharged 6th gen SS there... Just so happened both of our cars were Hyper Blue people couldn't tell our cars apart sometimes even ran very similar times at Etown.

-Jon

Ah yea I do remember you, lol!! You were one of the cooler dudes out there. I think you were in the one video I have where I get out after my run and Vinny is telling me I gotta start lowering the tire pressure and launching, lol!! Those were some goo nights. I got some good videos of him and I leaving the track and doing some spirited runs. There were quite a few people out there like the dude with the supercharged yellow C5 and the dude with the 800 RWHP F150. BTW, along with the firsts that you mentioned, I am sure I was one of the first, if not THE first, 6th Gen ZL1 to run there. When I came there that first night I wasn't even planning to run. I parked my car in the spectators lot. Vinny told me I should run it so I walked all the way back to the gate, paid the extra money to race, and that was the night I got the 12.3 and 12.1. But yea judging by what the announcer was saying I do think I was the very first 6th Gen ZL1 to go there!!

And yea the SS is not that far off from the ZL1. I think it is due to the fact that GM made these Camaros so they handle the power very effectively and get the power to the ground efficiently. Which explains why it takes very little effort for a stock ZL1 to run 11s. I wanted to go one more time and get an 11.5 - 11.6 but I didn't get the opportunity. And then the track closed. Oh well.