[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Oh I am sure it can be done, just not at US$40k to 50k in the foreseeable future. Double that price if you want an EV Coupe that will match ZL1 on a track.

And I don't know, kids love the V8 growls in my experience.

They may charge that much but EVs should cost less. They are just less complex once you get the initial R&D out of the way. For example that tri motor cybertruck will go 0-60 in 2.9 sec and tow 14,000 lbs and get over 500 miles on a single charge for $70k. The dual motor will go 0-60mph in 4.5sec for $49k and the single motor version will cost $39k. It is easy to make a fast EV, GM needs to develop a great chassis and suspension to make it a winner. GM has some of the best chassis engineers in the industry. If you took the Tesla M3 powertrain and stuck it in a GM designed EV sports coupe with a 1LE like suspension it would slaughter just about everything on the road. The power these EVs make pulling out of a corner is absolutely ridiculous, Tesla just hasn’t perfected the chassis and suspension like team Camaro and Corvette has done. Braking performance and weight reduction are other areas where GM should shine.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Well said. The whole auto industry should be shocked by what Elon has done. This is what happens when you have engineering leading the company vs. marketing and bean counters. And as a software developer, you shouldn't be surprised since the whole auto industry was long overdue for someone to come along and shake things up. I mean the software in most vehicles is archaic, the systems are outdated the moment you buy them. You get out of your vehicles slow crappy infotainment system and log into your phone or computer is like a quantum leap. Most auto makers just resort to Carplay and Android Auto integration since the built in stuff blows.

This is where Tesla has attracted more than just folks interested in an EV. The software, over the air updates, fast google earth hi res maps, voice recognition,
streaming audio, games, netflix, hulu, youtube, web browser, etc. has ushered in a bunch of buyers as well.

While the traditional auto makers are better than Tesla at building cars at scale. I think they will struggle to compete from a software perspective unless they really start hiring some developers to build the interfaces and UI vs. outsourcing to a bunch of 3rd party suppliers.

Absolutely on point about the software architecture large car makers tend to saddle everyone with. Even GM's 3.0 infotainment in the current model year Camaro is about 10 years behind the curve, and yes, much of this leads back to either indifference or incompetence due to MBA types calling many of the shots (not all, fortunately, which is why I have a Camaro in the first place ).

I cannot fathom why GM are unwilling to offer upgrades to their customers who purchased vehicles from them, especially those who bought new and took the $10k depreciation hit right off the dealer lot. I've just had to resort to aftermarket hacks to make wireless Android Auto work, for example. Why can't I get or even buy HD radio functionality? Rewinding satellite radio? Shift lights in the HUD? Themes? Configurable gauge cluster? Or a new tune that changes throttle response, or unlocks 25-50 hp (gasp)?

Selling feature upgrades would be a continuous income stream with near zero investment if GM has decent programmers, it's mind-boggling how they overlook this opportunity. Or do they seriously (cynically) believe I will ditch my 2018 and buy a 2021 just to, say, have wireless AA? Gotta give it to GM, though, at least they released an upgraded wireless charging module, which I was pretty happy about.



On the other hand, while giving all due credit to Elon Musk, I am no fan of electric cars, because IMO they go a few steps too far. I'm not a slave to technology and don't intend to be. Not only isn't automating everything and networking everything have the cool factor anymore, it robs us of the sense of control and responsibility that is essential to driving enjoyment. To me the line is between the driver receiving more inputs, which is great, and the car intervening, which is definitely not. I don't want it to brake for me, accelerate for me, steer for me and then expect me to keep participating—either I drive or the car does (and then it's like an appliance or a "private bus"), ie it's either "level 0" or "level 5" for me.

Unfortunately, EVs aren't only about the drivetrain with the insane immediate torque and the welcome change to the software distribution model, they have this "tacked on" idea of disengaging the driver. I understand this is probably what many people want, let them have their pods that they can safely cuddle their phones or play video games in, all good, as long as we also get to have our cars that we actually drive.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Absolutely on point about the software architecture large car makers tend to saddle everyone with. Even GM's 3.0 infotainment in the current model year Camaro is about 10 years behind the curve, and yes, much of this leads back to either indifference or incompetence due to MBA types calling many of the shots (not all, fortunately, which is why I have a Camaro in the first place ).

I cannot fathom why GM are unwilling to offer upgrades to their customers who purchased vehicles from them, especially those who bought new and took the $10k depreciation hit right off the dealer lot. I've just had to resort to aftermarket hacks to make wireless Android Auto work, for example. Why can't I get or even buy HD radio functionality? Rewinding satellite radio? Shift lights in the HUD? Themes? Configurable gauge cluster? Or a new tune that changes throttle response, or unlocks 25-50 hp (gasp)?

Selling feature upgrades would be a continuous income stream with near zero investment if GM has decent programmers, it's mind-boggling how they overlook this opportunity. Or do they seriously (cynically) believe I will ditch my 2018 and buy a 2021 just to, say, have wireless AA? Gotta give it to GM, though, at least they released an upgraded wireless charging module, which I was pretty happy about.



On the other hand, while giving all due credit to Elon Musk, I am no fan of electric cars, because IMO they go a few steps too far. I'm not a slave to technology and don't intend to be. Not only isn't automating everything and networking everything have the cool factor anymore, it robs us of the sense of control and responsibility that is essential to driving enjoyment. To me the line is between the driver receiving more inputs, which is great, and the car intervening, which is definitely not. I don't want it to brake for me, accelerate for me, steer for me and then expect me to keep participating—either I drive or the car does (and then it's like an appliance or a "private bus"), ie it's either "level 0" or "level 5" for me.

Unfortunately, EVs aren't only about the drivetrain with the insane immediate torque and the welcome change to the software distribution model, they have this "tacked on" idea of disengaging the driver. I understand this is probably what many people want, let them have their pods that they can safely cuddle their phones or play video games in, all good, as long as we also get to have our cars that we actually drive.

I hear you. While I do think the Tesla makes for a great daily driver and can blast you around town with ease I am not a fan of the full self driving go fund me venture. I did not purchase that software and never plan to. First of all it is false advertising since it doesn’t full self drive, you just wind up babysitting the system, which is just annoying. Auto park and Summon are just party tricks since you rarely ever use them as it is quicker to walk to your car or park it yourself. However, there are a ton of folks that love the idea but most of them have no idea how software development works or what each level of autonomous driving represents.

I am curious how GM will cater to enthusiasts moving forward as they venture into EV platforms. I was checking out the C8 Corvette forum and saw a thread where the corvette was attempting an over the air update and it drained the 12V battery and failed and the owner could even start his car the next morning. This makes me nervous for GM. They need a lot of work in this area. I am surprised at how well Tesla handles updates across the fleet. You can tell they have seasoned cloud operations folks running this service. Updates release about once a month or so on average, you get an alert and can defer it or you can even launch the update from your phone and watch the status in real-time.

The updates are one thing but like you mentioned the existing cars are very static in configuration. There are lots of little stuff that gets added on the Tesla. For example, the car has a built in dash cam and sentry mode security system that records video from all 7 cameras, however if you wanted to view the footage you had to take the memory card and watch it on your computer. A couple updates later now you can watch it from the built in screen. Another update added automatic close of windows upon walk away. Another update added brake hold where you can regen brake to a complete stop. One of my favorites was an update to Track Mode that added full control over the front rear bias, stability control and level of regen braking. The cameras record your sessions and telemetry, you can save driving profiles for each track. That is crazy that you get all that improvement. Remember when GM said you need to pay $350 so we can flash your mag-ride suspension configuration so you can enjoy the new tweaks we made.

They added new services like Spotify, Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, games, etc. You can control many features right from the app on your phone and you can see the car on a satellite map in real-time and the speed it is traveling at. The list goes on and on. As you mentioned, this is where GM and all other automakers have their work cut out for them as Tesla has changed the game in this area.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

They may charge that much but EVs should cost less. They are just less complex once you get the initial R&D out of the way. For example that tri motor cybertruck will go 0-60 in 2.9 sec and tow 14,000 lbs and get over 500 miles on a single charge for $70k. The dual motor will go 0-60mph in 4.5sec for $49k and the single motor version will cost $39k. It is easy to make a fast EV, GM needs to develop a great chassis and suspension to make it a winner. GM has some of the best chassis engineers in the industry. If you took the Tesla M3 powertrain and stuck it in a GM designed EV sports coupe with a 1LE like suspension it would slaughter just about everything on the road. The power these EVs make pulling out of a corner is absolutely ridiculous, Tesla just hasn’t perfected the chassis and suspension like team Camaro and Corvette has done. Braking performance and weight reduction are other areas where GM should shine.

Again, I will believe it when I see it. One thing people have to realize is that vaporware is, well, vapor until they deliver the final product. Tesla doesn't exactly have the greatest track record when it comes to that aspect. Remember how affordable they made Model 3 sound?

https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/28/1...elon-musk-news

Wouldn't be surprised that Cybertrucks ended up all being $20k more than promised because... Oopsie daisy, clumsy me, happened to tap the wrong key!

Also, GM can't feed on emission credits as Tesla does. Less maintenance on EVs, which translates to less profit from maintenance, is a big part of why GM pulled the plug(heh) on EV1. Gonna have to make up for it through the initial purchase cost.

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Absolutely on point about the software architecture large car makers tend to saddle everyone with. Even GM's 3.0 infotainment in the current model year Camaro is about 10 years behind the curve, and yes, much of this leads back to either indifference or incompetence due to MBA types calling many of the shots (not all, fortunately, which is why I have a Camaro in the first place ).

I cannot fathom why GM are unwilling to offer upgrades to their customers who purchased vehicles from them, especially those who bought new and took the $10k depreciation hit right off the dealer lot. I've just had to resort to aftermarket hacks to make wireless Android Auto work, for example. Why can't I get or even buy HD radio functionality? Rewinding satellite radio? Shift lights in the HUD? Themes? Configurable gauge cluster? Or a new tune that changes throttle response, or unlocks 25-50 hp (gasp)?

Selling feature upgrades would be a continuous income stream with near zero investment if GM has decent programmers, it's mind-boggling how they overlook this opportunity. Or do they seriously (cynically) believe I will ditch my 2018 and buy a 2021 just to, say, have wireless AA? Gotta give it to GM, though, at least they released an upgraded wireless charging module, which I was pretty happy about.

On the other hand, while giving all due credit to Elon Musk, I am no fan of electric cars, because IMO they go a few steps too far. I'm not a slave to technology and don't intend to be. Not only isn't automating everything and networking everything have the cool factor anymore, it robs us of the sense of control and responsibility that is essential to driving enjoyment. To me the line is between the driver receiving more inputs, which is great, and the car intervening, which is definitely not. I don't want it to brake for me, accelerate for me, steer for me and then expect me to keep participating—either I drive or the car does (and then it's like an appliance or a "private bus"), ie it's either "level 0" or "level 5" for me.

Unfortunately, EVs aren't only about the drivetrain with the insane immediate torque and the welcome change to the software distribution model, they have this "tacked on" idea of disengaging the driver. I understand this is probably what many people want, let them have their pods that they can safely cuddle their phones or play video games in, all good, as long as we also get to have our cars that we actually drive.

Eh, I think Infotainment 3 is fine other than it being a little slow on startup and occasionally has hiccups with driver memory. It's still better than Mazda's one and I have heard Toyota/Lexus ones are pretty crap. So I think this is just an industry problem. Personally, I don't care too much as long as it does the basic stuff right like playing music and offer navigation. More software features sound like more risk for glitches to happen, which I don't think is worth it for a car.

And while it is a business opportunity for them, chances are, they will turn them into some subscription-based system to really cash in on it. So uhm, don't give them any ideas.

Agreed that it's also either L0 or L5 autonomous driving for me, not any of this half-baked in-between stuff.

[jamala00]

Guys sure love the EV topic. This thread, similar threads on the HDForums are always front and center. Did anyone convince nonEV people to jump to the other side?

EV's will never be mainstream. They will just always fill a niche market. Too many things to figure out. Disposal of all the batteries, infrastructure for all the charging stations needed and all the power grids for those charging stations, all the drivers that will need to put a charging station in their garage (if they even have a garage), apartment complexes that don't have garages and would need to supply tenants with a way to charge their vehicle, people who live in areas where parking is a parking garage with no electricity, every youth kid that buys a $2000 beater or for that matter even adults that can only afford used beaters what are they going to buy? What is the used EV market? what are they worth? Who wants to buy a used EV that the battery/charging system is on it's last legs. That would be like buying an ICE that the motor was burning quart oil every 100 miles. You can't just bump up gas to $10/gallon and and then tell everyone... tough $hit, buy the gas or upgrade to a new EV. The Gov and oil businesses need to figure out how to replace all the revenue from oil. Ability to pull in to a gas station, top off and go in 5 minutes. I could keep going on the reasons why I don't feel EV's will ever be mainstream... Just my $.02, but I'd be willing to put $$ on it that they are never mainstream in my lifetime and that is a good number of years left (Hopefully)

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by 90503

FWIW...I just don't see any brand loyalty transferring over from ICE to EV....The EV cars will necessarily be vastly different....I think styling and performance, track performance that is, will be increasingly less of a decision...

All the characteristics of the EVs, especially Tesla, that some of you are sharing have been very informative...As successful as the Teslas are, this tells me that even though they look like pre-WWII sedans and staff-cars, they still sell like hot-cakes...

Chevy and a Camaro EV seem so far behind the 8-ball, I can't see them becoming any kind of sales success...Camaro will lose the ICE brand loyalty, even from non-owners who did not buy into the 6th Gen (I kept my 5thGen)...A lot of owners will likely take their ICE Camaros to the grave and never purchase an EV. Chevy and Camaro really have their work cut out for them, especially if they ditch ICE. If there is no EV Camaro, and the name just ends again, at this point it wouldn't be surprising.

Just my random $.02

Originally Posted by Devstrike

This is spot on and I believe is the most likely reason that Ford is leaving it up to their customers to determine whether the ICE lives or dies. We all know if Ford is leaving it up to the Costumer base of the Mustang that the ICE will live on probably for the remainder of my lifetime now. Dodge which has shown fury in all attempt to compete with Ford will now probably do the same to avoid losing out on future Challenger sales.

Even if California bans gas engine vehicles they can make the ICE for states like Texas Kansas or Missouri. Wouldn't be the first time an automaker made vehicles for a certain market. Dodge did it recently with the last two years of the Caravan and Journey before they both ended in I believe 2020 to avoid increase costs of meeting up to states with higher emission restrictions.

There is no easy answer for this but I think Ford is tackling it the best way right now by giving its costumers the choice and I hope GM takes note of it and prolongs the ICE Camaro while also having an EV Camaro on the side. Hopefully that EV will not be a Crossover like the Mustang.

This is all I've been saying since this mess started. Let the market dictate if the American public really want electric cars and the f'ing gub'ment or company CEO's (Mary) needs to keep their hands off forcing it on us.

To paraphrase Bob Lutz: forcing electric cars on the public is like forcing people to lose weight by only making pants with a waist size no larger than 32".

If the Camaro goes electric, only electric people will buy it.

And lets say GM fixes all the issues that currently make it a "bad coupe" while at the same time making it EV - you want to talk about pissing a LOT of people off?

I think Mary enjoys hog tying guys up in her office and crunching their nuts with her stiletto heels. But hey, some guys are in to that.

[Arizona_Droptop]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

If the Camaro goes electric, only electric people will buy it.

We aren't exactly there yet, but more and more people are becoming 'electric people'. This is particularly true for the younger crowd. Electric cars are becoming part of the zeitgeist, and that is not going to be easy to change. And once electric cars start becoming cost competitive with ICE cars, game over.

The big problem now, few of those young folks who want EV's can actually afford them now. Or, they are too young to drive. But I have a feeling a lot people here overestimate how loyal people are to ICE, and underestimate the youngest generations allure to EVs.

I think in about ten years, most people will be electric people. That change will happen gradually, then suddenly.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

This is all I've been saying since this mess started. Let the market dictate if the American public really want electric cars and the f'ing gub'ment or company CEO's (Mary) needs to keep their hands off forcing it on us.

To paraphrase Bob Lutz: forcing electric cars on the public is like forcing people to lose weight by only making pants with a waist size no larger than 32".

If the Camaro goes electric, only electric people will buy it.

And lets say GM fixes all the issues that currently make it a "bad coupe" while at the same time making it EV - you want to talk about pissing a LOT of people off?

I think Mary enjoys hog tying guys up in her office and crunching their nuts with her stiletto heels. But hey, some guys are in to that.

this isn't an issue of SUV vs sedan ...where the market can decide which it likes better and that's all fine and good.

The market isn't driven by long term needs that go beyond the current generation of car buyers. The nation can't afford to wait until that becomes a current generation market need/pressure to drive change. By then it's too late to prevent a series of panic buying and economic collapses of established industries or an impossible to ever catch runaway domination of the global economic/technical marketscape by another country.

You have to leverage incentives to begin making that change well before the market would see the pressure to do it themselves so that by the time that pressure would have naturally come, it's a non-issue and we're not playing catch up to other entities that did not wait.

edit: unless you're cool with abandoning america's tenuous lead on technology and the global economic market - which obviously is not shared by those in power. We want to stay relevant on the global stage. Having us be far less dependent on gasoline and improving transportation (and related tech) so that in a hundred years the country is all ev is a plan that has to start now ...not in a hundred years. The new car mandates are just for new cars, old cars will be around for far longer, and phasing them out is why this plan needs to start now... because while rich people can pivot quickly, the poorer people wont be able to. They need these generations of ev's to be passed down over the course of 20 years to start becoming accessible to them and by then they need them to be plentiful. That doesn't happen in your scenario.

In your scenario, the affluent people who can afford new cars will one day feel a need to buy ev ....that will also be a pressure on the much larger population of used car buyers who are screwed because there's no used ev market for them to purchase from. That need will grow to a must rather fast and all of the used car buyers will be left to hang. The current plan has the affluent people footing this bill ...and they can afford to... rather than making the poor pay a much higher price later.

[cellsafemode]

Plus, as more and more people live it cities, it becomes important for the vehicles there to not pollute the air. Migrating to ev vehicles is a way to avoid having to ban cars in general like some cities have done (in other countries).

Plus, the plan for migrating off cars emitting co2 and such is to attempt to get global warming and more importantly glacial melt water from increasing in growth rate ...and back down to what it was at previously so coastal populations have more time to adjust to a rising sea level which is inevitable.

In order for the used car buying population to be part of that plan (and they need to be), there needs to be a sufficient market of vehicles to purchase. Pushing the new car market is the least harmful way to do that to anyone's economy and in the end, the best option for any individual even if it upsets their immediate and selfish desires.

If GM decides to make an EV camaro coupe, it is the only long term path for camaro. There is no future for an ICE camaro. We can choose to adapt and see what new version of wrenching and being a gear head is all about ...or stick with what we're comfortable with and continue to dwindle in size and relevance as has been happening for the last couple decades.

there's no revolution to keep ICE alive that's going to happen here. The world is going ev - not just the US. I'm not opposed to diving into a future EV diy world as the current ICE one has never been fun or really accessible with it's tons of tools needed and gobs of moving / high stress parts failing and custom equipment to fix what can be fixed etc.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by jamala00

Guys sure love the EV topic. This thread, similar threads on the HDForums are always front and center. Did anyone convince nonEV people to jump to the other side?

EV's will never be mainstream. They will just always fill a niche market. Too many things to figure out. Disposal of all the batteries, infrastructure for all the charging stations needed and all the power grids for those charging stations, all the drivers that will need to put a charging station in their garage (if they even have a garage), apartment complexes that don't have garages and would need to supply tenants with a way to charge their vehicle, people who live in areas where parking is a parking garage with no electricity, every youth kid that buys a $2000 beater or for that matter even adults that can only afford used beaters what are they going to buy? What is the used EV market? what are they worth? Who wants to buy a used EV that the battery/charging system is on it's last legs. That would be like buying an ICE that the motor was burning quart oil every 100 miles. You can't just bump up gas to $10/gallon and and then tell everyone... tough $hit, buy the gas or upgrade to a new EV. The Gov and oil businesses need to figure out how to replace all the revenue from oil. Ability to pull in to a gas station, top off and go in 5 minutes. I could keep going on the reasons why I don't feel EV's will ever be mainstream... Just my $.02, but I'd be willing to put $$ on it that they are never mainstream in my lifetime and that is a good number of years left (Hopefully)

Battery prices will continue to fall. In 5-10 years is will be commonplace to replace an EV battery just like you swap a transmission today and you will most likely pick up improvements along the way. There will be a whole aftermarket dedicated to upgrading batteries, inverters, electric motors, etc.

You have aftermarket companies already offering stuff like this. This is basically how tuning works in an EV world at the moment.

https://ingenext.ca/products/ghost-u...25eb0f54&_ss=r

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Battery prices will continue to fall. In 5-10 years is will be commonplace to replace an EV battery just like you swap a transmission today and you will most likely pick up improvements along the way. There will be a whole aftermarket dedicated to upgrading batteries, inverters, electric motors, etc.

You have aftermarket companies already offering stuff like this. This is basically how tuning works in an EV world at the moment.

https://ingenext.ca/products/ghost-u...25eb0f54&_ss=r

and if you have batteries that last 20 years with 80+% of their original capacity still left, replacing batteries becomes a moot concern. Your vehicle will rust out and you'll probably inherit batteries from old cars into "refreshed" ones more often than taking your frame to a new battery pack.

That's with the hypothetical solid state lithium battery that was all over nature.com this week. Other tech could easily be in the same boat though - just depends on what can make it to market in the near future. Either way, current generation battery performance is not where it will be in a few years.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Arizona_Droptop

I think in about ten years, most people will be electric people. That change will happen gradually, then suddenly.

But how much of that will be due to peoples' own active desire for EV ownership and how much will be out of resignation to the apparent inevitable?


Norm

[Hops]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

They added new services like Spotify, Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, games, etc. You can control many features right from the app on your phone and you can see the car on a satellite map in real-time and the speed it is traveling at. The list goes on and on. As you mentioned, this is where GM and all other automakers have their work cut out for them as Tesla has changed the game in this area.

Treating a car like a mobile living room that needs a desktop really turns me off, i have zero interest in that. I drive to connect myself with the road and remove myself from being on the computer all day at work. I hope future GM driving enthusiast oriented vehicles don't follow down the path of removing the driver interaction from actual driving.

That doesn't mean i don't want tech. I want the technology that connects me to driving like the HUD for example (something i don't think you'll find on a tesla!). There's probably other ways we could use tech to enhance driving, like enhancing the feedback from the steering wheel to encode more information than before. Maybe new visual representations of things like slip angle in vehicle HUD.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Hops

Treating a car like a mobile living room that needs a desktop really turns me off, i have zero interest in that. I drive to connect myself with the road and remove myself from being on the computer all day at work. I hope future GM driving enthusiast oriented vehicles don't follow down the path of removing the driver interaction from actual driving.

That doesn't mean i don't want tech. I want the technology that connects me to driving like the HUD for example (something i don't think you'll find on a tesla!). There's probably other ways we could use tech to enhance driving, like enhancing the feedback from the steering wheel to encode more information than before. Maybe new visual representations of things like slip angle in vehicle HUD.

Totally agree. I am hopeful that GM will build an EV that is desirable and fun to drive. If not, we need to start collecting our favorite ICE based vehicles so we can enjoy them for the next 30-40 years.