[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

And how much does that cost? And you want to eat into Camaro's already small-ish trunk space for extra batteries?

Again, swaps NEVER make economical sense.

the fuel tank is also space for batteries.

And while the opening for the trunk is pretty small ..the trunk space area is really quite large - and there's alot of empty space behind the side carpeting.

Also the trunk sized muffler can be replaced with battery storage area.


Assuming this solid state battery ...the charge times being as low as they are ...less range wouldn't be as large of an issue (you wouldn't need say 300+ miles of range like you would feel you need currently to avoid lengthy recharging stops)

swaps wouldn't be about being economical so much as being about people not wanting to drive the "new car" options.

If there is no ev camaro, i'd rather swap my current car to an e-crate ...than drive an appliance if that's my options. Solid state lithium makes that much more of a viable option for even a daily driver.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

It's more like you get separate licenses for manual(and auto) and auto-only. Around my neck of woods, you can still do the test in a manual trans, you just don't get a separate license. I have heard some areas in the US have stopped people doing tests in a manual, though.

In the US you can still take your test on anything you want, anywhere in the country.

In Europe if you get the manual license you can legally drive anything. But if you get the automatic license you can’t legally drive a manual. To do so you need to re-certify.

My whole point was that all the things that are a must in driving old cars make people much more attentive on the road. Forget blind spot monitoring or pre-collision avoidance, if people simply had to learn how to shift and be constantly aware of what gear they’re in and what gear they’ll need next, they’re far more likely to be attentive to the road and their surroundings.

[GroundhogSS]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Keep in mind that certain Tesla Models are very capable cars and they make it even easier for the novice driver to go fast, even around a corner. Here is a comparison of Tesla Model 3 and Camaro SS, notice the Tesla still weighs a bit more as well.

Attachment 1068123

Attachment 1068124

Attachment 1068125

You can say all you want about how wonderful you think the Tesla is, but I can't tell you how much I don't care. Like most here, I savor the driving, the sounds, the satisfaction I get from my car, even though I now have an A8. If I had gotten my new knee a few years earlier, I probably would have a manual.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

In the US you can still take your test on anything you want, anywhere in the country.

In Europe if you get the manual license you can legally drive anything. But if you get the automatic license you can’t legally drive a manual. To do so you need to re-certify.

My whole point was that all the things that are a must in driving old cars make people much more attentive on the road. Forget blind spot monitoring or pre-collision avoidance, if people simply had to learn how to shift and be constantly aware of what gear they’re in and what gear they’ll need next, they’re far more likely to be attentive to the road and their surroundings.

If the goal is to reinforce driver attention to the road, then rather than go about it some roundabout way with a driving skill they wont use after the test, we can add eye tracking to the test car (mount it on the dash somewhere) and grade the driver based on eye direction at various points in the test. That should be directly test-able and gradable and doesn't rely on a one-off test-specific requirement like manual shifting that becomes moot as soon as the test is over.

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

the fuel tank is also space for batteries.

And while the opening for the trunk is pretty small ..the trunk space area is really quite large - and there's alot of empty space behind the side carpeting.

Also the trunk sized muffler can be replaced with battery storage area.


Assuming this solid state battery ...the charge times being as low as they are ...less range wouldn't be as large of an issue (you wouldn't need say 300+ miles of range like you would feel you need currently to avoid lengthy recharging stops)

swaps wouldn't be about being economical so much as being about people not wanting to drive the "new car" options.

If there is no ev camaro, i'd rather swap my current car to an e-crate ...than drive an appliance if that's my options. Solid state lithium makes that much more of a viable option for even a daily driver.

For homeowners with a Garage sure but for people living at a home with no driveway or garage parking on the side of the street or people living in apartment complexes with no garages or charging stations they will probably stick to gas for convenience purposes. Now if the issue is resolved and made easier for them to charge at home then your comment makes more sense but I discussed this earlier in this thread and at least for the people living in Complexes.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

If the goal is to reinforce driver attention to the road, then rather than go about it some roundabout way with a driving skill they wont use after the test, we can add eye tracking to the test car (mount it on the dash somewhere) and grade the driver based on eye direction at various points in the test. That should be directly test-able and gradable and doesn't rely on a one-off test-specific requirement like manual shifting that becomes moot as soon as the test is over.

Being graded via sensor monitoring of eye direction could be even less useful - especially given that people are likely to make sure that they satisfy that part of the road test (the part they know about going in) . . . potentially at some expense in paying attention around them on the road (like, the stuff that's not as predictable).

They're not going to have their eyesight direction monitored after the test, so that's just as moot. No guarantee that eyesight monitoring would even be part of the practice driving, either.


Norm

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

If the goal is to reinforce driver attention to the road, then rather than go about it some roundabout way with a driving skill they wont use after the test, we can add eye tracking to the test car (mount it on the dash somewhere) and grade the driver based on eye direction at various points in the test. That should be directly test-able and gradable and doesn't rely on a one-off test-specific requirement like manual shifting that becomes moot as soon as the test is over.

People who learn to drive on a manual, and never own one again, are far more likely to retain attentive habits long after they’re 16 years old than if they’re not. That’s a very true fact.

The basics are ingrained at the beginning. Part of the driving test should also include changing a tire, checking tire pressure and adding air, and knowing what all the basic fluids do and where they’re located and how to check them. All of that is neither complicated or unreasonable, yet would also assist in making people better drivers. Because they’ll be more involved with the car.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

the fuel tank is also space for batteries.

And while the opening for the trunk is pretty small ..the trunk space area is really quite large - and there's alot of empty space behind the side carpeting.

Also the trunk sized muffler can be replaced with battery storage area.

Assuming this solid state battery ...the charge times being as low as they are ...less range wouldn't be as large of an issue (you wouldn't need say 300+ miles of range like you would feel you need currently to avoid lengthy recharging stops)

swaps wouldn't be about being economical so much as being about people not wanting to drive the "new car" options.

If there is no ev camaro, i'd rather swap my current car to an e-crate ...than drive an appliance if that's my options. Solid state lithium makes that much more of a viable option for even a daily driver.

I mentioned this before, but battery energy density by mass and volume is pathetic compared to fossil fuels, even with the difference in efficiency in ICE and EM. You will need a lot of space to match the range.

Mounting in the muffler area smells like a safety disaster to me. So you want a Ford Pinto with fire that's even harder to put out? Tsk tsk.

And I mean, you may never need 300 miles, but there are other reasons for it to be a good thing. Fundamentally, lithium ion batteries just don't like deep discharge cycles, and bigger batteries make the same trip discharge less potion of the batteries. That, and range anxiety.

You also were the one who mentioned the swap to be an economical alternative initially for econoboxes. If you want to revive classics by converting them to EV, I think they would be cool as long as not all of them are converted. As I said, examples like Zombie 222 are very cool. If you have a passion for this stuff, then economical reasons need not apply, but for most non-enthusiasts, swaps are just never viable.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Being graded via sensor monitoring of eye direction could be even less useful - especially given that people are likely to make sure that they satisfy that part of the road test (the part they know about going in) . . . potentially at some expense in paying attention around them on the road (like, the stuff that's not as predictable).

They're not going to have their eyesight direction monitored after the test, so that's just as moot. No guarantee that eyesight monitoring would even be part of the practice driving, either.

Norm

Exactly. At the end of the day, you can change the test however you want, but no one really follows driving test driving after the fact.

Eyesight is as basic as "don't speed" in a driving test. In fact, the trick is to exaggerate your mirror checks and shoulder checks - you want your examiner to see it, but in actual driving, your movements will be much more subtle, and I stopped doing shoulder checks when changing lanes in my Camaro after adjusting my mirrors according to SAE. It's just unnecessary.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Mounting in the muffler area smells like a safety disaster to me. So you want a Ford Pinto with fire that's even harder to put out? Tsk tsk.

solid state lithium wouldn't have the same fire danger as lion. Punctures etc do not expose the lithium to air or short them out the same way as lion.

And I mean, you may never need 300 miles, but there are other reasons for it to be a good thing. Fundamentally, lithium ion batteries just don't like deep discharge cycles, and bigger batteries make the same trip discharge less potion of the batteries. That, and range anxiety.

The test was done 10,000 charge and discharge cycles. That's full charge to full discharge. That's 27 years of fully discharging the cell every day or 14-ish years of full discharges twice a day. That's far more driving than normal with ranges of even just 200 miles.

After that you're still at 85% full new battery capacity.

You also were the one who mentioned the swap to be an economical alternative initially for econoboxes. If you want to revive classics by converting them to EV, I think they would be cool as long as not all of them are converted. As I said, examples like Zombie 222 are very cool. If you have a passion for this stuff, then economical reasons need not apply, but for most non-enthusiasts, swaps are just never viable.

If it costs you 20,000 dollars to swap to a crate EV and have battery capacity to be viable ...that's still cheaper than buying a new car currently with the same or better specs.

I didn't say it was going to be cheap to the point where someone who has only the option of buying used cheap cars ...but cheaper than buying brand new for someone who doesn't want to drop 35-40 k to get an ev of equivalent performance and not just a ev version of a civic.


for driving, the idea that training someone to move a gear lever makes them a better driver is some fun mental gymnastics for people who want to hold on to this idea that manual driving is more pure than auto or builds a better driver. Watching their eyes (since that attention is what we care about) ...even if they're being extra careful during a test, is a better way to measure the ability of the driver to drive in the natural habitat that they'll be using after the test. The test is not going to stop people from being crap drivers after the test - that's not the nature of how tests work, it's just there to make sure that you are capable. And it does it in a more meaningful way than testing a drivers outside of the thing that they're supposed to be driving. That feedback from eye tracking and a recording of what was around the vehicle during the test via external cameras would be far more valuable to people learning how to drive than being able to rev match and use a clutch. That learning of where to look and what they should be looking at would be taught in a driving education program the same as learning how to use obsolete technology in this manual driving program. The difference is the driver would learn to associate their behavior with the actions they'll actually be using and doing vs hoping they carry over skills in an activity they'll never do again in with the vehicle they will be using.

[raptor5244]

Check out how quick this one is. It would be fun to see a match up with the Zora C8 Corvette.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesl...-wing-testing/

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

solid state lithium wouldn't have the same fire danger as lion. Punctures etc do not expose the lithium to air or short them out the same way as lion.




The test was done 10,000 charge and discharge cycles. That's full charge to full discharge. That's 27 years of fully discharging the cell every day or 14-ish years of full discharges twice a day. That's far more driving than normal with ranges of even just 200 miles.



After that you're still at 85% full new battery capacity.

Looking it up, it's still largely vaporware at this point. The price is way too high to be viable in even electronics, let alone automotives.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-...ate-batteries/

I will believe it when I see it, but right now the tech just isn't ready.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

If it costs you 20,000 dollars to swap to a crate EV and have battery capacity to be viable ...that's still cheaper than buying a new car currently with the same or better specs.



I didn't say it was going to be cheap to the point where someone who has only the option of buying used cheap cars ...but cheaper than buying brand new for someone who doesn't want to drop 35-40 k to get an ev of equivalent performance and not just a ev version of a civic.

But then why in the f would anyone spend $20,000(and that's being optimistic; remember that LS Miata is a very, very well-explored swap so that's actually one of the cheaper swaps out there) on a paid off family sedan that already sips fuel? How long would that take for them to offset the cost? Even if you use the fuel price in Europe or Japan, the math doesn't work out. If someone is already budget-concious enough to not buy a somewhat expensive EV, why would they want to do a conversion that definitely doesn't make financial sense?

It just makes so much more sense to sell your old car for a Prius than to convert your car to an EV.

I know in Europe, you can convert gas cars to run on LPG which is cheaper than gas over there. The key part is that the conversion process costs little(I think only a few hundred Euros/Pounds) so it doesn't take too long to offset that initial investment. I can see alternative fuels working out, with us seeing Flex Fuel here, but once you actually start touching the powertrain, it's a completely different story.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

for driving, the idea that training someone to move a gear lever makes them a better driver is some fun mental gymnastics for people who want to hold on to this idea that manual driving is more pure than auto or builds a better driver. Watching their eyes (since that attention is what we care about) ...even if they're being extra careful during a test, is a better way to measure the ability of the driver to drive in the natural habitat that they'll be using after the test. The test is not going to stop people from being crap drivers after the test - that's not the nature of how tests work, it's just there to make sure that you are capable. And it does it in a more meaningful way than testing a drivers outside of the thing that they're supposed to be driving. That feedback from eye tracking and a recording of what was around the vehicle during the test via external cameras would be far more valuable to people learning how to drive than being able to rev match and use a clutch. That learning of where to look and what they should be looking at would be taught in a driving education program the same as learning how to use obsolete technology in this manual driving program. The difference is the driver would learn to associate their behavior with the actions they'll actually be using and doing vs hoping they carry over skills in an activity they'll never do again in with the vehicle they will be using.

Most people are capable of watching for the most part. That's how you pass driving tests. Examiners already pay attention to your eye movement, you don't need to German overengineer it and have an AI do it.

Petrol has a good point in that, a lot of the times, it's not that people can't do it, it's because they don't want to. Distracted driving is a bigger problem than ever, and no amount of focus on eye movement fixes that. You just have to get the person driving engaged and care about what they are doing. That's where driving a stick could potentially help, as a newbie at least has to think about it more. And who knows, some people end up getting to like stick shift and sticking(heh) with it. I only knew how to drive auto when I got my Novice, and I got converted to driving stick shift when people told me to try it out. And if you travel abroad, it's a great skill to have.

So basically, you two are not on the same page. You are focusing on fixing skill issues(which some people definitely have), but Petrol is more talking about attention issues.

[Number 3]

I agree there is an engagement issue with a manual transmission, but improve d ficus is a stretch IMO. LOL the last manual transmission I drove was 18 speeds and it took more focus to get that right than just driving the truck. But over time I expect that would have become 2nd nature too, which I my thought on a manual in a car. It just becomes 2nd nature and your brain does what the computer would do.

[Number 3]

Oh and just saw this big fat NO. Just blatantly copy Ford? Let’s hope not. But then again wasn’t the 67 Camaro trying to copy the Mustang? Just no. Now call it the BlazEr or something else? Maybe.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/05...ed-liked-this/

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by GroundhogSS

You can say all you want about how wonderful you think the Tesla is, but I can't tell you how much I don't care. Like most here, I savor the driving, the sounds, the satisfaction I get from my car, even though I now have an A8. If I had gotten my new knee a few years earlier, I probably would have a manual.

I used to feel the same way until I drove one. I was driving around a Camaro 2SS and then got a C7 Grand Sport M7 Vert when the pricing was really good on the C7s. My older son got a car so we downsized the SUV and my wife test drove the Tesla and fell in love with it. I was like yeah the tech is pretty cool but it is no replacement for the thrill of a Corvette. So after a couple of months of driving her car once in a while it started to win me over. It is the combination of the improved tech, excellent infotainment and sound system, the smooth effortless power, the one-pedal driving in traffic and the low cost of ownership that starts to become apparent. For daily driving these vehicles are really hard to beat. It is has been 2 years and 20,000 miles and all we have done is rotate the tires and refill the washer fluid reservoir. It costs about $5 a week in electricity.

I never tracked my Corvette and the roads here in Florida are pretty much straight and boring so your are pretty much putting around local roads in traffic. Tesla offered me what I paid for my C7 so I made the switch to a Model 3 Performance. For me, the C7 was more like a scalpel and the Tesla is the swiss army knife. The C7 was really great at being a true sports car but the Tesla is the better all around vehicle for the type of driving I am doing. It is crazy how times change, as a kid the Corvette and Camaros are what we admired but the Tesla is the the car that gets all the attention now from people of the street.