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Old 06-19-2021, 09:50 PM   #15
Whitespeed
 
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I'm 6'7" tall and since I have the seat maxed out as far back as it will go, I can't take advantage of the locking OEM belt. Even if the Recaro seats were certified safe to use with Schroth QuickFit Pro, I couldn't use those either. My shoulders are above the top of the seat back, and the belts would be pulling down on my collar bone, which is a no go. So, I ended up installing the Schroth Rallye 3's. I would not recommend this for everyone though. I have 20+ years of fabrication experience and I wouldn't describe these as 'bolt-in'. I've seen how some other people have installed them and it's pretty scary.

The original trans tunnel side seat belt bolt is too short to use with the Schroth belt, but I've seen it still get used! You can use one of the bolts that comes with the Schroth belt, but it's too long as is. It will interfere with the ability of the seat to go up and down. So, a few threads will need to be cut off. The length of the OEM bolt on the door side is fine. I put a couple of bends in each of the Schroth seat belt brackets so that the OEM belts and the Schroth belts would not be rubbing on each other.

The shoulder straps have to go between the headrest posts. I've seen them placed around the outside of the posts. This is wrong! However, if you're tall like me and your shoulders are above the top of the seat backs, the Recaro headrest becomes a problem. It has that lip or chin which blocks most of the opening in the between the top of the seat and the bottom of the head rest. I swapped in non-Recaro headrests. They are a direct swap.

The rear shoulder harness mounting was the trickiest part to figure out. Most people appear to just bolt the seat belt anchor in place as is an then loop the belt back out through the plastic trim. But this leave a lot of slack to take up in the event of an accident. The only way I found to make it work reasonably well was to put a bend as close the the belt loop hole of the bracket, but it has to be at an angle as well. It's hard to explain.

I'm confident in what I've done, and I really like how well they hold me in the seat. It's a bit of a pain having them in the car all the time. However, I've found that for day to day driving, I can leave them buckled up against the seat back and sit against them. With belt pads installed on the shoulder straps, I surprisingly hardly notice that the harness is there. This way, I can simply use the OEM belt for day to day.

Again, this is not for everyone, and I am not making a recommendation. Just sharing what I've done.



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Old 06-20-2021, 07:00 AM   #16
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Yep, did 3 point also. Spent time in the phone with Schroth and Simpson. I also use the Hybrid and have two additional hybrids for passengers (two sizes). Works very well and since it acts like a factory belt, all good. Just need blank clips to insert and activate air bags. $10 on Amazon...
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Old 06-20-2021, 03:04 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitespeed View Post
I'm 6'7" tall and since I have the seat maxed out as far back as it will go, I can't take advantage of the locking OEM belt. Even if the Recaro seats were certified safe to use with Schroth QuickFit Pro, I couldn't use those either. My shoulders are above the top of the seat back, and the belts would be pulling down on my collar bone, which is a no go. So, I ended up installing the Schroth Rallye 3's. I would not recommend this for everyone though. I have 20+ years of fabrication experience and I wouldn't describe these as 'bolt-in'. I've seen how some other people have installed them and it's pretty scary.

The original trans tunnel side seat belt bolt is too short to use with the Schroth belt, but I've seen it still get used! You can use one of the bolts that comes with the Schroth belt, but it's too long as is. It will interfere with the ability of the seat to go up and down. So, a few threads will need to be cut off. The length of the OEM bolt on the door side is fine. I put a couple of bends in each of the Schroth seat belt brackets so that the OEM belts and the Schroth belts would not be rubbing on each other.

The shoulder straps have to go between the headrest posts. I've seen them placed around the outside of the posts. This is wrong! However, if you're tall like me and your shoulders are above the top of the seat backs, the Recaro headrest becomes a problem. It has that lip or chin which blocks most of the opening in the between the top of the seat and the bottom of the head rest. I swapped in non-Recaro headrests. They are a direct swap.

The rear shoulder harness mounting was the trickiest part to figure out. Most people appear to just bolt the seat belt anchor in place as is an then loop the belt back out through the plastic trim. But this leave a lot of slack to take up in the event of an accident. The only way I found to make it work reasonably well was to put a bend as close the the belt loop hole of the bracket, but it has to be at an angle as well. It's hard to explain.

I'm confident in what I've done, and I really like how well they hold me in the seat. It's a bit of a pain having them in the car all the time. However, I've found that for day to day driving, I can leave them buckled up against the seat back and sit against them. With belt pads installed on the shoulder straps, I surprisingly hardly notice that the harness is there. This way, I can simply use the OEM belt for day to day.

Again, this is not for everyone, and I am not making a recommendation. Just sharing what I've done.



Great post, by somebody who has taken the time to analyze the situation. I would add, that there are plenty of things to consider when completely replacing OEM belts and *especially* when disabling OEM airbags. Some things i have read about are: length of harness, angle between rear anchor and shoulders, position of straps relative to shoulders and neck (it is no coincidence race seats have cut outs and not all race seats will fit all ppl), etc. This is a complex subject imo.

Anyhow, I'd say a safe and generally widely allowed add-on is a static waist belt worn in addition to OEM belts. As soon as OEM belts are not in use, we must fully understand that WE are now taking full responsibility for us (and any passengers!). The reason i mention this is that i have seen some incredibly unsafe set ups even in semi pro cars. When questioned, folks often shrug their shoulders and answer: my shop/cage builder/etc did it this way. Well, it won't be them flying thru the windshield...

The most prevalent by far, is incorrectly secured harness belts at anchor points, specifically at the buckles. There is a complete parallel between race car harness buckle and a climbing harness buckle, as the same principle applies: if a belt harness is not properly double backed, or re-woven thru a buckle, it will simply pull out and the harness will fly open under a load. Ive attached a few pix to demonstrate this vital point. First is of a high end autox car with safety inspection stickers galore: the driver side is fine, the passenger harness is an ornament only and will provide virtually zero protection in a crash. Think pushing your car on a track with zero belts on...The other 2 are of a climbing harness to demonstrate how to properly double back a harness.

Fyi, anytime i get into any car with harnesses, either to drive it, or ride shot gun, this is something i ALWAYS check for. And frankly i don't care whether it belongs to a novice amateur, or IMSA pro with a Rolex on. Bottom line, even in pro cars harnesses sometimes get taken off to gain access and sometimes folks forget to re install them properly. Cheers!
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Old 06-20-2021, 04:42 PM   #18
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Good points to validate. When I did mine, I simply called several manufactures of belts and the Simpson team. The roll cage investigation seemed to point to "go all in and professional built, welded and inspected cage or don't do it". Just my findings, and opinion. My issue was the amount of torso and leg strength to stay upright in the seats. The 3 point made a significant improvement and I'm much less exhausted when the day is done (I'm 59)... And I did not want to lose any airbag value. My recommendation, call vendors and dicuss, and call several to get consensus, it's your safety...
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Old 06-20-2021, 06:04 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbo-1LE View Post
Good points to validate. When I did mine, I simply called several manufactures of belts and the Simpson team. The roll cage investigation seemed to point to "go all in and professional built, welded and inspected cage or don't do it". Just my findings, and opinion. My issue was the amount of torso and leg strength to stay upright in the seats. The 3 point made a significant improvement and I'm much less exhausted when the day is done (I'm 59)... And I did not want to lose any airbag value. My recommendation, call vendors and dicuss, and call several to get consensus, it's your safety...
Concur completely: proper safety incl belts starts with a proper cage. If even the best harness gets attached to $hit cage, the result is still $hit. When you say 3 point...what exactly do you mean? I am aware of full 5, or 6 point harnesses, so what is a 3 point? Need some education here. Thanks!
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Old 06-20-2021, 06:17 PM   #20
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Concur completely: proper safety incl belts starts with a proper cage. If even the best harness gets attached to $hit cage, the result is still $hit. When you say 3 point...what exactly do you mean? I am aware of full 5, or 6 point harnesses, so what is a 3 point? Need some education here. Thanks!
Regarding 3 point, I think Timbo is referring to Schroth Rallye 3
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Old 06-20-2021, 09:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbo-1LE View Post
Good points to validate. When I did mine, I simply called several manufactures of belts and the Simpson team. The roll cage investigation seemed to point to "go all in and professional built, welded and inspected cage or don't do it". Just my findings, and opinion. My issue was the amount of torso and leg strength to stay upright in the seats. The 3 point made a significant improvement and I'm much less exhausted when the day is done (I'm 59)... And I did not want to lose any airbag value. My recommendation, call vendors and dicuss, and call several to get consensus, it's your safety...

I called Schroth, and their recommendation was a harness bar.


The reality is, it's not an exact science. I see their being multiple viable solutions that can be effective when executed properly. However, that leaves a lot up to the talent of the person doing the design and installation, and as already mentioned, the results can vary widely. Unfortunately, there's no really practical way to non-destructively prove out the finished product.
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Old 06-20-2021, 11:09 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Whitespeed View Post
I called Schroth, and their recommendation was a harness bar.


The reality is, it's not an exact science. I see their being multiple viable solutions that can be effective when executed properly. However, that leaves a lot up to the talent of the person doing the design and installation, and as already mentioned, the results can vary widely. Unfortunately, there's no really practical way to non-destructively prove out the finished product.
Well said, albeit there are some strong guidelines readily available. Such as: don't mix a harness bar with a 5/6 point harness unless a car has a super strong roof design. Camaro is not one of them btw - and besides - many orgs dont permit this combo regardless. As mentioned above, welded cage is much preferred over a bolt on. Amateur racing orgs have strict rules as to roll bar/cage designs, often based on curb weight, class Etc.

Bottom line, it is rather hard to change OEM integrated safety systems, while retaining streetability, except for adding a waist harness. Everything else seems like a compromise of sorts, unless one goes with full track/race car design. That of course renders a car unsuitable for street duty.

I think it is key to simply understand limitations of a given solution and make an educated decision regarding personal safety. I guess that perhaps some folks get swayed by marketing (and dont read the small print) and develop opinions that anything aftermarket is better (even if it comes delivered by Amazon in a box for self assembly)

Agree that testing any aftermarket designs is completely impractical. Yet, race cars get build every day and they must follow detailed specs, which are usually pretty safe bets to follow. Again, the hardest area is the proverbial middle ground, as it usually gives up OEM safety, yet never achieves a full race car standard. Cheers!
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Old 09-17-2021, 10:07 PM   #23
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Resurrecting this thread as I’m now in the market for a harness. I’m fairly small at 5’8” and 168lbs. The Recaros are great but I still find myself wishing I were more snug. In our lemons car with a full harness, cage etc, I can do a 2 hour stint and feel relatively good by the end since movements are mostly just hands, arms and feet.

In the camaro, its definitely more of a full body workout to stay planted and I’d rather invest that energy (physical & mental) in driving instead.

It seems the Rallye 3 is the best solution thus far for my dual purposes 1le. I wish there was a combination rallye 3 with quickfit pro connections but I guess beggars can’t be choosers.

Will be placing my order soon.
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Old 09-18-2021, 08:12 PM   #24
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OP here, I've now had a chance to try out the seat belt all the way trick at a few track days, and it's ok, but barely. If you've driven a car with a proper harness, it's hard to settle for just the seat belt. I also noticed my hips/torso moving a bit on fast corner transitions. I'm 5'11" 190lbs.

Will give Rallye 3 a closer look as well for next season.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:45 AM   #25
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as previously mentioned, this has come up many times. i got my first modern camaro in october of 2010. i was on the forum a lot back then. as i got more and more into tracking the car, i got to a decision point. i was at VIR in the fall discussing winter performance mods with an old retired SCCA champ from back when SCCA was a real racing org. he kinda dressed me down a little for wanting more go with no real racing safety in the car. the way he put it was easy. you do NOT strap yourself in an upright position without extra roll over protection. you dont want you head held up even with the head rest when the roof can cave in down to mid level of the seat. as previously mentioned you either stay with factory safety or go full cage with 5 or 6 point belts. converting a car to at least 6 point cage ruins it for the street. yes i did it and it was fun but the car was like a harley at that point for street. drive it a few miles for fun but its not a go on vacation rig at that point. its a track car. these are hard decisions but there is really no "well what about if i do this? then can i break these safety rules?" no. if you want to cut corners, go ahead but you are cutting corners with your life. that truck got turned over by a car leaving cars and coffee at 30 miles an hour. the risks are real. yall be safe!
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Old 09-23-2021, 07:19 AM   #26
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Let me add, the Rallye 3 has ASM, which to my understanding acts like a factory system, the inside belt has a section which allows the pelvis to move in an accident. Recommend you look it up for specific details. Again, research and make calls. As I stated I had 3 calls with the vendors before I moved forward. I'm a bit overboard on safety, as I have 3 Simpson Hybrid's, one for me and two others (different sizes) for anyone who rides, along with 3 different suits. To my understanding per input from doctors, after the helmet, the Hybrid is most critical, its just too bad they cost so much.
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Old 09-23-2021, 08:40 AM   #27
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Let me add, the Rallye 3 has ASM, which to my understanding acts like a factory system, the inside belt has a section which allows the pelvis to move in an accident. Recommend you look it up for specific details. Again, research and make calls. As I stated I had 3 calls with the vendors before I moved forward. I'm a bit overboard on safety, as I have 3 Simpson Hybrid's, one for me and two others (different sizes) for anyone who rides, along with 3 different suits. To my understanding per input from doctors, after the helmet, the Hybrid is most critical, its just too bad they cost so much.

Not quite right on the Schroth ASM. There's webbing built into the inside shoulder strap that will give way under impact allowing your torso (not pelvis) to pivot over the lap belt, preventing you from sliding under the lap belt. Hence the acronym ASM - Anti-SubMarine.
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:40 PM   #28
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Thx Whitespeed, your spot on.
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