[newb]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

You need to quantify that disadvantage in terms of sales, otherwise it's pure speculation. My guess you will still find the Mustang sells way more V6 and EB variants over base GTs, and the Challenger obviously doesn't sell as well as the Camaro. So if there is any disadvantage, it's the packaging of the Camaro LT cars that's probably more of a disadvantage compared to the Mustang. Not the lack of a cheap V8 which there is no proof I've seen, actually is a major factor in sales. Most people looking for a cheap pony car aren't looking for a V8 because they already think or can't afford V8 mileage and insurance costs.

Just my opinion.

I think many people on these forums are performance fans and forget the fact that the vast majority of Camaros, Challengers, and Mustangs are not V8 models. Regardless of price, most people really only care about the look or interior or nameplate. The performance is moot. So having the more expensive higher trim will not make a significant difference in sales. The people who care about performance will pay to play.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by SpookShow'84

That is a somewhat valid point but what something sells for and what it's really worth are two different things. Speculation and people in the 1st paragraph of that post influence price, not value/worth.

Here's what I think about "the market"

"A bubble is a type of investing phenomenon that demonstrates the frailty of some facets of human emotion. A bubble occurs when investors put so much demand on a stock that they drive the price beyond any accurate or rational reflection of its actual worth, which should be determined by the performance of the underlying company. Like the soap bubbles a child likes to blow, investing bubbles often appear as though they will rise forever, but since they are not formed from anything substantial, they eventually pop. And when they do, the money that was invested into them dissipates into the wind."

Oh I %100 agree with you on stocks. However since buying a stock can(and has many many times) eventually leave you with nothing it doesn't really warrant comparison to a hard asset like a car which will likely not (if cared for) devalue to zero. A car is more of a commodity. What's more it's something physical that you can not only own but use daily and enjoy. While it quite possible GM will hit a wall with it's pricing on high end models of the Camaro and did so with the last gen Z/28 cars are not in a category like homes where the market was driven buy junk mortgages lumped into junk mutual funds.
If a car stops selling they either stop making it or adjust the price or make people want it through advertising etc.
Again if the market keeps supporting new and increasing pricing and GM is hitting volume expectations on various models with theses profit margins there is no reason for them to stop. Not to mention pricing products according to cost and not according to what the market will bear is foolish business.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by Posaune

When your V8 starts at $37,295 and your direct competitors start at $31,995 (Challenger R/T) and $32,395, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. Not everyone buying SS Camaros, Mustang GTs and Challenger R/Ts are looking for the best performing or are a brand loyal enthusiast. Many are looking for an affordable V8 sport coupe that looks good. It doesn't matter that the Camaro SS will run circles around both of them.

I believe team Camaro should be looking to out perform both as well as many other cars that cost much more but the laser focus on standard performance (and the cost that came with it) will hurt Camaro in the long run.

The Challenger R/T does not even come close to competing with an SS. There is more to a performance car than how many cylinders it has. The Challenger R/T is on par with a v6 Camaro.

Along the same point, the SS outperforms the SRT8 Challenger which starts around 45k IIRC. It's actually very close to the GT350, which starts at 50k....for $37k.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by IOMike

The Challenger R/T does not even come close to competing with an SS. There is more to a performance car than how many cylinders it has. The Challenger R/T is on par with a v6 Camaro.

Along the same point, the SS outperforms the SRT8 Challenger which starts around 45k IIRC. It's actually very close to the GT350, which starts at 50k....for $37k.

No the R/T doesn't compete performance wise with a SS..

However, if you're not caring about the best performance, or are particularly brand loyal, but just want a big, comfortable V8 coupe with good styling and street manners...the 5.7 R/T is a steal.

[SpookShow'84]

That makes sense, b/c their position on price is more fluid than what other businesses can withstand and a new car on a lot is more commodity like. It's comparison to the other similar products on the market/other dealer lots at that time, and the fact that it's somewhat perishable. Hence the massive price cuts on the in stock '15 Z28 cars.

The hot rodder in me says eff that big price though, I'll find an '06 vette and make it faster for less money.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by motorhead

I wish people would stop whining about people that whine.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by IOMike

The Challenger R/T does not even come close to competing with an SS. There is more to a performance car than how many cylinders it has. The Challenger R/T is on par with a v6 Camaro.

Along the same point, the SS outperforms the SRT8 Challenger which starts around 45k IIRC. It's actually very close to the GT350, which starts at 50k....for $37k.

We, as enthusiasts, make up a tiny portion of the purchasing pool. I would venture a guess that those R/T buyers are not purchasing based on the R/Ts performance vs. Camaros or Mustangs, but they have managed to average about 37% of all Challenger sales since 2009. Same time frame, R/T and SRT Challenger sales have averaged for more then 50% of all Challenger production. Camaro V8 sales have hovered around 25-30% over the same period IIRC ( I don't currently have those numbers in front of me).

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

This^

The way I look at it is eventually, the Camaro/Mustang/Challenger is going to hit a price wall. It can be one of the best performance cars in the world, but its still a Chevy Camaro/Ford Mustang/Dodge Challenger. There is going to be a price point where people just say no. Like Thor said, there was still 2015 Z/28s sitting on dealer lots, with the the 20% savings on them.

Now yes, this really only applies to the halo models, the ones that offer insane performance so it really doesn't apply to sales, so I guess it doesn't matter what I think lol. But is there really a market for an 80K Camaro/Mustang/Challenger?

I wonder how many would want the GT 350 if Ford had put those same features as a package for the Mustang GT but NOT called it a Shelby GT 350? What if they just called it a Track Package Option for a Mustang GT Premium?

Think there would be that same demand? I bet not.

And what if the base price of the car started in the $70K range? Would it be in such demand then? Probably not.

So, if Chevy wants to market these high dollar options, it has to be for a specific model that people want and priced reasonably.

At the end of the day, it is still a Camaro to most people like a Mustang is to everyone. But gussy it up and call it a Shelby? Well, now you have demand.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I wonder how many would want the GT 350 if Ford had put those same features as a package for the Mustang GT but NOT called it a Shelby GT 350? What if they just called it a Track Package Option for a Mustang GT Premium?

Think there would be that same demand? I bet not.

And what if the base price of the car started in the $70K range? Would it be in such demand then? Probably not.

So, if Chevy wants to market these high dollar options, it has to be for a specific model that people want and priced reasonably.

At the end of the day, it is still a Camaro to most people like a Mustang is to everyone. But gussy it up and call it a Shelby? Well, now you have demand.

Yeah but I think even with the shelby once you have an MSRP cross a certain point its going to turn buyers off. I just don't know if there is a market for an 80K plus pony car.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yeah but I think even with the shelby once you have an MSRP cross a certain point its going to turn buyers off. I just don't know if there is a market for an 80K plus pony car.

I could not agree with you more but hey, some people with very deep pockets do not care.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yeah but I think even with the shelby once you have an MSRP cross a certain point its going to turn buyers off. I just don't know if there is a market for an 80K plus pony car.

There are actually quite a few offerings for sports coupes/cars in the $60-$80k+ range.

Cadillac V series
BMW Ms
Mercedes
Porsche
Camaro
Corvettes
Mustang
Challenger
Jaguar
Alfa Romeo
Audi
Infiniti
Nissan

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by Posaune

There are actually quite a few offerings for sports coupes/cars in the $60-$80k+ range.

Cadillac V series
BMW Ms
Mercedes
Porsche
Camaro
Corvettes
Mustang
Challenger
Jaguar
Alfa Romeo
Audi
Infiniti
Nissan

You missed the "$80,000+" part...

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

You missed the "$80,000+" part...

How so? The list I populated include cars in the $60-$90K range. How does an $80K+ Camaro fit into that? An $80K+ pony car can be produced but realistic expectations should be held as far as volume management and production.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I could not agree with you more but hey, some people with very deep pockets do not care.

That is true. The people with the deep pockets will, but how many of those buyers with deep pockets might go looking at other options at that price point.

Originally Posted by Posaune

There are actually quite a few offerings for sports coupes/cars in the $60-$80k+ range.

Cadillac V series
BMW Ms
Mercedes
Porsche
Camaro
Corvettes
Mustang
Challenger
Jaguar
Alfa Romeo
Audi
Infiniti
Nissan

Originally Posted by Posaune

How so? The list I populated include cars in the $60-$90K range. How does an $80K+ Camaro fit into that? An $80K+ pony car can be produced but realistic expectations should be held as far as volume management and production.

It doesn't fit because it's a Camaro, same reason the Mustang and Challenger don't really fit in a list with cars that cost 80K or more. The majority of those cars you listed are also well respected luxury cars. At the end of the day no matter how amazing it is, its still a Chevrolet/Ford/Dodge.