Homepage Garage Wiki Register Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
#Camaro6
Go Back   CAMARO6 > Technical Camaro Topics > Road Course/Track and Autocross


BeckyD @ James Martin Chevy


Post Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-26-2022, 01:27 PM   #15
Mountain

 
Mountain's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 SS 1LE, 2016 1SS (previous)
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Metro-Detroit
Posts: 1,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyboy96 View Post
I get the point of the Hans devices; however, I come from an ATV/MX racing background also and often wondered if a simple neck brace that is used in MX would be sufficient. Not bashing the Hans, just always seemed a bit over the top. The point is to stop your head and helmet from flying forward in a crash and breaking your neck. The mx neck brace is designed to do a similar function AND prevent you from breaking your neck from impacts from multiple angles. I can tell you first hand ATV GNCC and MX crashes are pretty brutal and fatalities are often in the GNCC series.

Link to an example:
https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/r...5-neck-brace-p
I would assume that it wouldn't be too much of an advantage:
-The head going backwards is supported/restrained by the seat. The MX/ATV brace wouldn't really do anything here as it's design targets, most substantial, a reduction in that direct, where the seat will already do this.
-The head going forward is the big issue in a track vehicle - high speed = high forces/high acceleration on the head. The MX/ATV brace, I don't see how will help much here as it doesn't prevent the head from going forward, only slightly limiting how forward can go. An automotive head restraint (HANs, Hybrid, etc.) significantly limits how much the head can go forward and tethers that movement to the body (couples the force absorption to the body).
Mountain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 02:57 PM   #16
ponyboy96
 
ponyboy96's Avatar
 
Drives: 2020 ZLE A10, 2018 F250 Diesel
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain View Post
I would assume that it wouldn't be too much of an advantage:
-The head going backwards is supported/restrained by the seat. The MX/ATV brace wouldn't really do anything here as it's design targets, most substantial, a reduction in that direct, where the seat will already do this.
-The head going forward is the big issue in a track vehicle - high speed = high forces/high acceleration on the head. The MX/ATV brace, I don't see how will help much here as it doesn't prevent the head from going forward, only slightly limiting how forward can go. An automotive head restraint (HANs, Hybrid, etc.) significantly limits how much the head can go forward and tethers that movement to the body (couples the force absorption to the body).
Gotcha. I wouldn’t buy an ATV brace, just pointing out that a neck collar would likely accomplish the same result. I guess you could also teather your helmet to your seat too. I think the Hans is kind of a moot point with airbags though. I sat through a safety class one track weekend where they covered adding race harness, cage, race seat etc… negates the factory designed crash protection items. The factory seat is designed to break in certain crash situations, the airbags deploy with so much motion. Basically they said, if you install a race seat you should install a harness, roll cage, remove airbags, etc… or it would be less safe. Same with a harness. Etc.. they basically said if you do anything, you need to go all the way.

Not to derail the original post. I think a Hans is a great idea in a race car. I just wonder if that’s true with an airbag equipped vehicle with factory components. Maybe that’s why they don’t make more hybrids?
ponyboy96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 03:27 PM   #17
HSLdriver
 
Drives: 2018 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 12
Related to the above post, understanding what head and neck restraints do may lead you to conclude that, while they are critical in a racecar, their use in a street car, even on track, might be cosplay.

First, what are they designed for: Protecting the wearer from a basilar skull fracture (BSF, a break of a bone in the base of the skull) during a rapid forward longitudinal deceleration (generally a collision) in a racecar having a racing harness. The latter is important because a racecar harness does not stretch. The former is important because there are other ways to suffer BSF in a car that restraints can't help; e.g., lateral penetration of the car by an object contacting the helmet.

And second, some reasoning:

1) OEM marketing: Manufacturers market these for racing in racecars, not street cars, and detail why they are a benefit in that capacity. This really isn't scientific evidence, but it does foreshadow some of the following.

2) Dearth of literature on street-car BSF: What little one can find in street-car BSF is buried in general collision studies and is almost always the result of cabin penetration by an object or significant cabin deformation--basically accidents that were not survivable regardless of safety equipment. If restraints worked in street cars, we'd expect to see studies demonstrating this (why? Because the bread and butter of academics is finding something new, and showing that street-car BSFs are common enough to address would easily get funding or contribute to tenure, and would breeze past any Ph.D. dissertation committee, never mind leading to proposals for "head seatbelts" or other BSF-related safety items).

3) Wealth of literature on racecar BSF: Lots of papers in the literature on BSF in racecars--it's definitely an issue in racecars (but why? Read on!).

4) Street car seatbelts: Street car seatbelts and tuner belts (e.g., Schroth) are really ingenious designs. Unlike racing harnesses (and by the end of this sentence you should see why you should never install a racing harness without 5 or more points, a race seat, cage, and HANS), street-car and tuner harnesses stretch, first to bend you at the waist so you can't submarine underneath (smart, right?) then to prevent deceleration injuries by ensuring the driver/passenger decelerates more slowly than the car itself. It does this often in two ways: one is the natural stretch in the material due to its weave (that's why you need to replace your belts after any accident); the other (sometimes) is a section of belt that is folded on itself with stitching that will rip with enough force, then unfolding to make a longer belt. And these make it hard to experience BSF in a street car (and easy in a racecar). A ton of info on this is provided by Schroth at the HMS Motorsport site. And yes, seatbelts are pretty phenomenal.

5) Airbags: I'm tired of typing, hopefully this one is self explanatory (i.e., how far can your head travel when it's hitting an airbag?).

6) Unintended consequences: Better is not always better--could head restraints in street cars cause unforeseen problems (e.g., two concussive events vs. one due to the first when reaching the end of the tethers followed by a second contacting the bag?); probably not, but never assume that all race stuff is better (try commuting in your DD using race pads and see how much "better" that is; related, apparently one race school has gone to "less safe" open-face helmets because they have found that the maxillofacial bar can cause neck injuries upon contacting the airbag). Check with the manufacturer.


This is all just based on my research and you should certainly conduct your own (though if you want factual information, try to avoid anecdotes, feel good "peace of mind" thoughts, best guesses, gut instinct, and advice from the fastest guy at the track) and find what works for you. Just some thoughts; the best experts on this are at the HANS OEMs--it would be great to hear from some of their biomechanical and/or human dynamics engineers.

Enjoy the track!
HSLdriver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 09:10 PM   #18
ponyboy96
 
ponyboy96's Avatar
 
Drives: 2020 ZLE A10, 2018 F250 Diesel
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 118
Thank you for the write up and very detailed explanation. I think that is very beneficial to everyone. I really do appreciate it. I tried doing some searches on Hans devices in street cars and really couldn’t find much info related to street cars. All the literature was around race cars with safety harnesses, race seats, no air bags and cages.
ponyboy96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 05:27 AM   #19
Zl1+911
 
Drives: 997 GTS, ZL1 A10, ZLEM6, ZLEA10
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 509
I suffered a front collision in my ZLE into a concrete pillar (immovable) at a speed of 80-100 mph (I don’t know the exact speed as you can imagine). The full front of the car was crushed. However the windshield was intact if that gives you a sense of the impact. I do not wear any device - all stock. The only thing I do is to “lock” my seat belt so that I am not sliding around.

The front airbags deployed and the helmet did what it’s supposed to do. I am thankful to say that I did not need as much as an ibuprofen the next day and walked out of the car and cleared concussion protocol and did not pass out etc. I did have what is referred to as a post concussion syndrome for 3 months - which is like a lingering haziness that comes and goes.

I have to say with the stock set up - I feel very confident that a front collision - the car is designed well and I do not see the need for a additional device. I further believe (right or wrong) that safety is a system - not one device by itself. And mix and match of systems is not going to make you more safe - but in most cases make you less safe.

I am sticking to the OEM setup for now.
Zl1+911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 06:34 AM   #20
Christian1LE
 
Drives: 2004 BMW 330CI, 2022 1SS 1LE
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: NC
Posts: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyboy96 View Post
Thank you for the write up and very detailed explanation. I think that is very beneficial to everyone. I really do appreciate it. I tried doing some searches on Hans devices in street cars and really couldn’t find much info related to street cars. All the literature was around race cars with safety harnesses, race seats, no air bags and cages.
People use them a lot in Go-Karts now too. No airbags but also no seat belts. Not sure if they are effective however or if there is any official testing.
Christian1LE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 07:50 AM   #21
Blueclyde

 
Drives: 2018 ZL1
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Detroit
Posts: 1,700
Quote:
Originally Posted by HSLdriver View Post
Related to the above post, understanding what head and neck restraints do may lead you to conclude that, while they are critical in a racecar, their use in a street car, even on track, might be cosplay.

First, what are they designed for: Protecting the wearer from a basilar skull fracture (BSF, a break of a bone in the base of the skull) during a rapid forward longitudinal deceleration (generally a collision) in a racecar having a racing harness. The latter is important because a racecar harness does not stretch. The former is important because there are other ways to suffer BSF in a car that restraints can't help; e.g., lateral penetration of the car by an object contacting the helmet.

And second, some reasoning:

1) OEM marketing: Manufacturers market these for racing in racecars, not street cars, and detail why they are a benefit in that capacity. This really isn't scientific evidence, but it does foreshadow some of the following.

2) Dearth of literature on street-car BSF: What little one can find in street-car BSF is buried in general collision studies and is almost always the result of cabin penetration by an object or significant cabin deformation--basically accidents that were not survivable regardless of safety equipment. If restraints worked in street cars, we'd expect to see studies demonstrating this (why? Because the bread and butter of academics is finding something new, and showing that street-car BSFs are common enough to address would easily get funding or contribute to tenure, and would breeze past any Ph.D. dissertation committee, never mind leading to proposals for "head seatbelts" or other BSF-related safety items).

3) Wealth of literature on racecar BSF: Lots of papers in the literature on BSF in racecars--it's definitely an issue in racecars (but why? Read on!).

4) Street car seatbelts: Street car seatbelts and tuner belts (e.g., Schroth) are really ingenious designs. Unlike racing harnesses (and by the end of this sentence you should see why you should never install a racing harness without 5 or more points, a race seat, cage, and HANS), street-car and tuner harnesses stretch, first to bend you at the waist so you can't submarine underneath (smart, right?) then to prevent deceleration injuries by ensuring the driver/passenger decelerates more slowly than the car itself. It does this often in two ways: one is the natural stretch in the material due to its weave (that's why you need to replace your belts after any accident); the other (sometimes) is a section of belt that is folded on itself with stitching that will rip with enough force, then unfolding to make a longer belt. And these make it hard to experience BSF in a street car (and easy in a racecar). A ton of info on this is provided by Schroth at the HMS Motorsport site. And yes, seatbelts are pretty phenomenal.

5) Airbags: I'm tired of typing, hopefully this one is self explanatory (i.e., how far can your head travel when it's hitting an airbag?).

6) Unintended consequences: Better is not always better--could head restraints in street cars cause unforeseen problems (e.g., two concussive events vs. one due to the first when reaching the end of the tethers followed by a second contacting the bag?); probably not, but never assume that all race stuff is better (try commuting in your DD using race pads and see how much "better" that is; related, apparently one race school has gone to "less safe" open-face helmets because they have found that the maxillofacial bar can cause neck injuries upon contacting the airbag). Check with the manufacturer.


This is all just based on my research and you should certainly conduct your own (though if you want factual information, try to avoid anecdotes, feel good "peace of mind" thoughts, best guesses, gut instinct, and advice from the fastest guy at the track) and find what works for you. Just some thoughts; the best experts on this are at the HANS OEMs--it would be great to hear from some of their biomechanical and/or human dynamics engineers.

Enjoy the track!
Thank you for this perspective. I was seeing some of this in other research I have done outside of this forum site. This is extremely informative.
Blueclyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 07:52 AM   #22
Blueclyde

 
Drives: 2018 ZL1
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Detroit
Posts: 1,700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zl1+911 View Post
I suffered a front collision in my ZLE into a concrete pillar (immovable) at a speed of 80-100 mph (I don’t know the exact speed as you can imagine). The full front of the car was crushed. However the windshield was intact if that gives you a sense of the impact. I do not wear any device - all stock. The only thing I do is to “lock” my seat belt so that I am not sliding around.

The front airbags deployed and the helmet did what it’s supposed to do. I am thankful to say that I did not need as much as an ibuprofen the next day and walked out of the car and cleared concussion protocol and did not pass out etc. I did have what is referred to as a post concussion syndrome for 3 months - which is like a lingering haziness that comes and goes.

I have to say with the stock set up - I feel very confident that a front collision - the car is designed well and I do not see the need for a additional device. I further believe (right or wrong) that safety is a system - not one device by itself. And mix and match of systems is not going to make you more safe - but in most cases make you less safe.

I am sticking to the OEM setup for now.
Thanks for the feedback. Glad you were ok.
Blueclyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 12:58 PM   #23
ponyboy96
 
ponyboy96's Avatar
 
Drives: 2020 ZLE A10, 2018 F250 Diesel
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian1LE View Post
People use them a lot in Go-Karts now too. No airbags but also no seat belts. Not sure if they are effective however or if there is any official testing.
Yes and a race Kart is more akin to a race car with a race seat and race harness. Definitely makes sense there.
ponyboy96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 03:33 PM   #24
cdrptrks
 
cdrptrks's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 Blue Camaro 1SS 1LE with PDR
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by HSLdriver View Post
2) Dearth of literature on street-car BSF: What little one can find in street-car BSF is buried in general collision studies and is almost always the result of cabin penetration by an object or significant cabin deformation--basically accidents that were not survivable regardless of safety equipment. If restraints worked in street cars, we'd expect to see studies demonstrating this (why? Because the bread and butter of academics is finding something new, and showing that street-car BSFs are common enough to address would easily get funding or contribute to tenure, and would breeze past any Ph.D. dissertation committee, never mind leading to proposals for "head seatbelts" or other BSF-related safety items).
Nobody is wearing a Hybrid S during daily driving and many race tracks have lots of runoff and/or deformable barriers to reduce G load in the event of an impact with a barrier. Then think about how many people in HPDE are actually pushing the car hard enough to possibly have an incident where a Hybrid S would save their life...this may explain the lack of literature. Also if someone experiences a BSF during an HPDE event, is there even any literature or publicly available information that it happened unless one of their relatives shares a detailed cause of death? Those who really want to push their car may have already stepped up to a harness/cage before they experienced such an incident.

After driving on 100 treadwear tires for the first time, I decided that it is worth buying a Hybrid S for the peace of mind. The added weight of the helmet works against you if you ever have a big frontal impact on track without a Hybrid S.
cdrptrks is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 05:05 PM   #25
HSLdriver
 
Drives: 2018 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 12
Thanks for this--I see that I could have been more clear. In terms of research papers, I was referring to all the literature I looked at for automobile BSF. This included street cars on the street (the point being BSF doesn't seem to present in street cars operated on the street outside of catastrophic, otherwise unsurvivable accidents which makes one--or at least me--wonder, why doesn't it?). I didn't expect to find any literature on street cars used on track (and I didn't) and I certainly didn't expect to see any literature on racecars used on the street (and didn't; I was actually surprised how much was published about BSF and racecars on track, i.e., there's not a lot of examples/case studies and how many ways can you study the same cases?!). To summarize maybe a little more clearly, the literature would seem to indicate there are relatively little to no preventable (i.e., with a head restraint) BSF in street accidents, which is not the case in a racecar and the reason would seem to be the function of the street belt and bag vs. the race harness. And again, these are just some ideas--it would be great to get contributions from some HANS experts. And absolutely no judgement here on any peace-of-mind or other views, I'm simply deeply interested in this area--and safety in general--and am always very open to hearing other data- or science-based evidence and ideas. Sorry I was confusing about that and thanks again for pointing it out!
HSLdriver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 07:14 PM   #26
N Camarolina
 
N Camarolina's Avatar
 
Drives: 2021 2SS 1LE
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 290
I just bought a Hybrid S at the end of last season.

Was planning on getting one anyway, but happen to have my first significant off-track excursion at VIR (90 mph at turn 10) last Sept. I lost the rear on corner entry (my fault) and had enough awareness and control to send the car to outside after the first catch-attempt failed. So no harm done to the car or me (just ran into the grass). But if I had hooked it to the inside, I surely would have crashed into the tire wall.

You don't necessarily need to be pushing really hard in order to have off-track excursion; Too much trail braking, too late into the brake zone, fluid on the track, etc. And when you do have an unexpected off, you can't be guaranteed to have plenty of run-off area in front of you (some tracks just don't have tons of run-off at all corners).

I'm relieved to hear that ZL1+911 got away from his crash without any bodily harm. But not all of us might be so lucky. I've read somewhere that crash systems in road cars are designed for 35mph impacts, not 2-3 times that like we routinely see at HPDE.

It just makes sense to me to try to protect your head from BSF. I'll draw the line at installing a cage/harness/etc because my car is for DD. The Hybrid S is a good option for those that want some extra protection beyond stock.
N Camarolina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2022, 03:34 PM   #27
Heartbreaker
 
Heartbreaker's Avatar
 
Drives: 2018 Camaro ZL-1 Cornfed A10
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Nashville
Posts: 195
Simpson Hybrid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbo-1LE View Post
Look at the Simpson Hybrid. I have used for 3 years and recommend by Chin and other groups, and discussed with several doctors, all gave a thumbs up.
Simpson Hybrid is the only approved Hans device for OEM 3 point belts.
__________________
Home Track: NCM Motorsports Park
Heartbreaker is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Post Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.