[shaffe]

Im pretty sure ST1LE was laying on the sarcasm with the truck engine comment but not 100% sure.


Back to my point though, I am not saying the way ford did it this gen where they went back and fixed issues is the right way to go about it but I understand the constant tweaking from the business side. Maybe a better example would be Dodge, I know they don't really have anything else but the keep tinkering and cobbling new models together and ones that target specific people and what not.

I just don't see why some people think it's such a bad thing for a company to keep tinkering with a current model to either improve it or just keep it fresh

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

The said "truck engine" works well though. In fact, that's what sold me the car. It's got a more authentic American feel to it than a DOHC V8 which you can get from Japanese and European auto makes.

The LT1 works well, yes. It's a good engine, but nothing exotic. There's nothing wrong w/ the LT1 in the Camaro or C7, but I feel that in the mid engine Corvette, they should have gone more exotic. Or at minimum, something similar to what GM did w/ the LS7 for the C6 Z06 with a higher redline pushrod V8 to make it feel more exotic in the base C8. Obviously, the Z06 will solve that issue w/ the high revving FPC 5.5 liter DOHC V8.

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Objectively, some of OHV's characteristics are actually favourable for sports cars. Lower centre of gravity, compact packaging, good low-end torque are a few I can think of.

Oh really? Is this why all the exotics use OHV V8s? Oh wait. I wonder if y'all will complain about the center of gravity or large heads on the C8 Z06 engine like you do w/ the Coyote?

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

High-revving NA engines are fun, but inevitably you will sacrifice low-end torque with it and in daily driving, low-end torque is king. That's why turbocharged family cars are growing.

Low end torque is cool, but there's plenty of it in my Gen 3 Coyote for daily driving, even when it was stock. It's not like I'm driving a slug that turns into a Stallion above 4k rpm. Does it have as much torque as an LT1 at 2000 rpm? No. Does it have plenty at 2000 rpm for daily driving? Yes. And especially after my recent mod additions, there's a significant amount more low/mid torque, and 50 more hp at the top end. Not to mention, the car is over 60 lbs lighter now as well (36 lbs of that is rotational mass savings due to the wheels I recently installed).

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

And heh, Dodge uses a pushrod V8 in the Challenger and gets away with it so I don't think that's what's causing the problem. Also, I don't see people judging Corvettes for having the same truck engine as the Camaro. GM and FCA are the only two makes that still use pushrods and that makes the pushrod V8 all that interesting.

Sent from toaster or something

The Challenger has never been considered exotic so no one yearns for a DOHC or more exotic high revving engine. Besides, the Challengers and Chargers are way too heavy for an engine without a bunch of bottom end. Look, I love Corvettes. But, for the C8 - practically every review I've read, or test drive I've watched, or whatever source, has mentioned the LT2 as not matching up to the mid-engine aura of the C8. Just as things start to get interesting, you have to shift. Sure, it makes great power and torque, but there's something lacking in the technology that doesn't match up to the mid-engine layout. The Z06 should fix all those complaints (and hopefully the understeer issue many have observed w/ the Z51 C8).

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The LT1 works well, yes. It's a good engine, but nothing exotic. There's nothing wrong w/ the LT1 in the Camaro or C7, but I feel that in the mid engine Corvette, they should have gone more exotic. Or at minimum, something similar to what GM did w/ the LS7 for the C6 Z06 with a higher redline pushrod V8 to make it feel more exotic in the base C8. Obviously, the Z06 will solve that issue w/ the high revving FPC 5.5 liter DOHC V8.




Oh really? Is this why all the exotics use OHV V8s? Oh wait. I wonder if y'all will complain about the center of gravity or large heads on the C8 Z06 engine like you do w/ the Coyote?




Low end torque is cool, but there's plenty of it in my Gen 3 Coyote for daily driving, even when it was stock. It's not like I'm driving a slug that turns into a Stallion above 4k rpm. Does it have as much torque as an LT1 at 2000 rpm? No. Does it have plenty at 2000 rpm for daily driving? Yes. And especially after my recent mod additions, there's a significant amount more low/mid torque, and 50 more hp at the top end. Not to mention, the car is over 60 lbs lighter now as well (36 lbs of that is rotational mass savings due to the wheels I recently installed).




The Challenger has never been considered exotic so no one yearns for a DOHC or more exotic high revving engine. Besides, the Challengers and Chargers are way too heavy for an engine without a bunch of bottom end. Look, I love Corvettes. But, for the C8 - practically every review I've read, or test drive I've watched, or whatever source, has mentioned the LT2 as not matching up to the mid-engine aura of the C8. Just as things start to get interesting, you have to shift. Sure, it makes great power and torque, but there's something lacking in the technology that doesn't match up to the mid-engine layout. The Z06 should fix all those complaints (and hopefully the understeer issue many have observed w/ the Z51 C8).

Exotic doesn't equate to unique. If I want a DOHC V8, I can go for a BMW(ok probably not because they suck) or Lexus and get one, too. It's nothing that special.

I can see your point with the Corvette but I don't look at a Camaro and think "yeah that's exotic." It has a great chassis and handling but at the end of the day, it's a pony/muscle car. The pushrod V8 aura is what I like about the car. It's not just the low-end torque, it's about the distinct notes as well. Meanwhile a Lexus V8 will sound pretty close to a Mustang stock for stock, in fact that takes away from the Mustang for me. It doesn't fit in a pony car IMO.

Besides, Corvette has always really been more about the value than being full-on exotic. I mean before C8, they have used leaf springs for the longest time. Exotic cars are cool if you have the money for the maintenance and can deal with their repairs.

Speaking of exotic cars, there are actually a few that use the LS engines. Take a look here.

https://www.lsxmag.com/features/car-...re-ls-powered/

Another factor to consider is that I personally would be careful with any engine without good economy of scale. LT1 and Coyote are okay in that regard since both engine get trickled down into trucks. They get all the budget and R&D to ensure their reliability, and the profit from trucks guarantees this. The new 5.5TT flat crank in the Z06? I'd be a bit wary before I gulp down that Kool-Aid. Aside from the fact that GM isn't exactly experienced with one, how much budget do you expect the R&D team to get if this engine will only go in low-volume sports cars? Especially with high revving engines, there are a lot that can go wrong.

With that said, it could be a good rental. If the engine breaks, I am not the one dealing with the repairs, LOL.

Sent from toaster or something

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Well he does sort of have a point. Some people here act like someone is bashing their child if they say anything negative about the camaro. Even if it is someone who used to work at GM like Number 3. Or even if its a legit concern the response is usually oh it doesn't matter it's good enough for me or I live alone I don't care if theres no room or its not my daily driver I don't care. People here let the enthusiast in them take over.

You pointed out Ford has continually updated the Mustang since 2011. Yes they have. IS that because they fumbled the ball more than a few times sure is but the point is they still keep investing in the current product to keep interest up. Not only trying to lure people away from competition but also try to give people a reason to trade up. Maybe somebody with 15-17 S550 wants to trade up now to an 18+ because of something like PP2, Bullitt or Mach (despite that fact you don't like it which is totally fair but it if helps sell another car isn't that the goal)

I will use you as an example now, you leased your HC correct? Now not everyone is as well of financially as you blaq so just hear me out.

Say you leased a Camaro SS in 2017. Your lease is up how likely are you to lease the same car again if it's virtually unchanged from your current car or maybe you look to the competition to see what they have. BUT maybe if GM had upped the power or added new models and not just sticker packages maybe you'd get another camaro. that is the advantage of continually updating. Or even not in the lease end you just get people that are dumb with money and keep trading up lol. There are plenty of people here who have already had multiple 6th gens for various reasons. Think of how many more multiple owners there could be if they did updates /new models like Ford and Dodge do.

I think some of the frustrations come from the fact the GM has the know how/ability and in some cases all the stuff is right there for them to do it and they are just like nah were good with adding another choice of $3,000 sticker packages. And its not like GM doesn't continually update their other vehicles through out the generation

I don't want Camaro to go away. Competition makes everyone better. It just makes me sad that I can't even consider a Camaro when my lease is up.



I read an article on the demise of the viper the other day actually. Lower trims was one of the things the article mentioned might have saved it since the Z06/Z07 was breathing right down its neck for considerably less.

As far as practicality its been beat to death but in my case for me it would be just enough more. It's more the trunk/opening and space for me and now especially with a kid in a car seat that little bit of extra trunk space can go a long way



I think the biggest problem the SS had was that it was essentially fully loaded.

Yea I mentioned how lower trims and options like an auto could have saved the Viper in another post. I liked it for what it was, but that doesn't make a successful car venture lol

Now that I have a GT and an SS I can say they're both practical enough to daily and live with but both share the same "impracticalities" that people gripe about... having said that, the Mustangs trunk opening is just enough bigger to notice the discrepancy often enough.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The LT1 works well, yes. It's a good engine, but nothing exotic. There's nothing wrong w/ the LT1 in the Camaro or C7, but I feel that in the mid engine Corvette, they should have gone more exotic. Or at minimum, something similar to what GM did w/ the LS7 for the C6 Z06 with a higher redline pushrod V8 to make it feel more exotic in the base C8. Obviously, the Z06 will solve that issue w/ the high revving FPC 5.5 liter DOHC V8.



Oh really? Is this why all the exotics use OHV V8s? Oh wait. I wonder if y'all will complain about the center of gravity or large heads on the C8 Z06 engine like you do w/ the Coyote?



Low end torque is cool, but there's plenty of it in my Gen 3 Coyote for daily driving, even when it was stock. It's not like I'm driving a slug that turns into a Stallion above 4k rpm. Does it have as much torque as an LT1 at 2000 rpm? No. Does it have plenty at 2000 rpm for daily driving? Yes. And especially after my recent mod additions, there's a significant amount more low/mid torque, and 50 more hp at the top end. Not to mention, the car is over 60 lbs lighter now as well (36 lbs of that is rotational mass savings due to the wheels I recently installed).



The Challenger has never been considered exotic so no one yearns for a DOHC or more exotic high revving engine. Besides, the Challengers and Chargers are way too heavy for an engine without a bunch of bottom end. Look, I love Corvettes. But, for the C8 - practically every review I've read, or test drive I've watched, or whatever source, has mentioned the LT2 as not matching up to the mid-engine aura of the C8. Just as things start to get interesting, you have to shift. Sure, it makes great power and torque, but there's something lacking in the technology that doesn't match up to the mid-engine layout. The Z06 should fix all those complaints (and hopefully the understeer issue many have observed w/ the Z51 C8).

The big giant dohc heads in the c8 probably wont be an issue to the ones that complain about them in the Mustangs because of engine placement as well as it'll probably be a dry sump oil system and be mounted lower by comparison, thus a lower center of gravity.

The lt1 works well and isn't exotic, neither is the gen 3 coyote. The coyote has plenty down low for daily driving, and the lt1 has plenty up top for racing and hooning around. Pretty moot point, but I know you're just defending the 5.0. Also as "exotic" as the ls7 was for a small block, it redlined just 500 rpm more than an lt1.

All the exotics have moved to dohc engines, they're also for the most part highly tuned and many times force inducted, which will make up for a deficit down low in most dohc applications. The exotics have also moved to high gear dct (or autos in general) for the most part aside of a few NA Porsches. They keep them up in the higher rpms they thrive at. However while the a10 does this for the Mustang the mustang is a pony/muscle car that still comes in an m6 with plenty of rpm drop between gear shifts where power down lower is important. Especially in a road course application with an m6 car where you're not always going to be at 5krpm+.

Lets not just bring up supercars, lets talk about race cars. The small block has proven itself and done plenty in high budget GT racing, in the past as well as recent times. So has the 5.0, oh wait no it hasn't, it has very little racing pedigree outside of gt4.

I do agree that with the c8 being a mid engine dct only "super car" esque vehicle a dohc engine will fit it better, but plenty of reviews have spoken well about the lt2 and how well it works in the c8 layout. As far as the camaro, a front engine rear drive pony/muscle car that comes in an m6? Ohv is perfect imo.

Question? Did you dyno your car to confirm the hp gains or are you going off of K&N and manufactor claimed gains? I have yet to do anything to my 19 GT but do plan on a jlt cai and Lund e85 tune in the near future.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

While I very much appreciate your enthusiasm for the best all around pony car in production, you could stand to drink a little less Kool-Aid. Bhobbs is right, the Camaro could be much better with more attractive engine packages and it should be. Why is that a bad thing?

The engine line-up in the Camaro is boring to A LOT of sports car guys and girls. Not everyone wants a truck engine in their sports car, even if it is mounted in the best chassis available.

GM is making the right decisions on the C8, hopefully there is a Gen 7 Camaro and it can get some of the more exciting, high revving engines from the C8.

It's boring to a lot if boys and girls and beloved by a lot of boys and girls, thus the popularity of the small block.

And technically the 5.0 is a truck engine as well lol. My cousin has an a10 5.0 f150 and that thing moved out.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

It's boring to a lot if boys and girls and beloved by a lot of boys and girls, thus the popularity of the small block.



And technically the 5.0 is a truck engine as well lol. My cousin has an a10 5.0 f150 and that thing moved out.

Honestly, if we are talking about an average buyer, they don't really care that much about the engine characteristics and displacement. Heck, some people don't even know how many cylinders their cars have. I was one of them when I bought my first car, my 08 Accord Coupe V6. Dad asked me how much power it has, Googled it, saw the first result with 190 BHP and told him that, except that was the figure for the I4 version and the V6 makes 268 BHP.

In that sense, I suppose the HP war makes sense since it gives people bragging rights. I can agree that Chevy could have just slapped on the CAI for a trim package for a little extra spice.

Sent from toaster or something

[jbuenavides]

The Mustang has better visibility, which makes it easier to drive fast, but ultimately the Camaro is still the more rewarding machine in which to go hunting corners.

[shaffe]

Was this the thread where we are talking about constantly tweaking lineups

because Dodge did it again

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-specs-photos/

807HP Hellcat SuperStock Challenger and 797 hp Charger Widebody

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Question? Did you dyno your car to confirm the hp gains or are you going off of K&N and manufactor claimed gains? I have yet to do anything to my 19 GT but do plan on a jlt cai and Lund e85 tune in the near future.

Neither, actually. I did before/after MAF reading logs and before/after acceleration tests. The K&N intake alone added a large amount of airflow to the MAF readings (2.5-3 lbs/min). I haven't done MAF logs w/ the ported TB, IM, and catback yet, but I have done acceleration tests. The ported TB, IM, and exhaust improved acceleration beyond the K&N intake only.

My best bone stock 0-60 run was 3.80 seconds on all season tires in Sport+ mode (so much for "drag mode only w/ PS4S" argument around here).
With the engine mods I hit 3.78 sec on my only attempt but that was not nearly as good of a launch as the 3.80 sec stock run. This was also in sport+ mode, same Michelin all seasons sport 3+, and no burnout on back roads. With a few launch attempts, I'm confident it would hit 3.6x. Both corrected for DA for an apples to apples comparison.

That said, my acceleration splits improved significantly before/after. My 20-70 mph time with the K&N intake only was 3.53 seconds. With the addition of the ported OEM TB and IM, and the Borla S type it improved to 3.28 seconds. Those are corrected for DA, but not wind (for what its worth both were done in DAs within 200' of each other). On the 3.53 sec run I had a tail wind, with the 3.28 sec run I had a cross wind, so the difference is even greater. It was consistently 0.05 seconds quicker for every 10 mph split even with the wind difference. Unfortunately, I never did a 20-70 mph run bone stock. These runs were done on the exact same stretch of flat road.

I haven't done any testing since I added the SVE R350 wheels (each 9lbs lighter than the factory wheels). I estimate based on some calcs I did that my 0-60 time would improve by 0.05 seconds or more, and my 20-70 mph split should drop to low 3.2x seconds.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by jbuenavides

The Mustang has better visibility, which makes it easier to drive fast, but ultimately the Camaro is still the more rewarding machine in which to go hunting corners.

That makes no sense at all.

When you drive fast, your attention is forward, not twisting around to see out the back window.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Well, you obviously see this differently than I do. Concerning right or wrong GM doesn't design and produce cars like Frod which has been explained previously. The individual in question just likes to whine about GM/Chevy and it gets old so I will speak up. I agree with Blaq here and if I wanted a do it yourself "kit car" I'd buy a Factory Five kit. Been there done that with Frod and have all the gift shop paraphernalia.

Having owned a few Mustangs (~6) over the years. Everything from mild daily drivers, a very early 351W Fox swap before aftermarket swap kits were available and had to make my own headers, to a 408 stroker track/streetcar with MM front and rear suspension kits and finally an NHRA comp car with 2 x Paxton with a stand alone ecu when most were still trying to figure out a single SC EEC-IV setup. So I believe I am better versed than most to make and push the Kool-Aid when it comes to well conceived and executed Sports Cars. If you don't like my "enthusiasm" you can always block me, I would understand.

I pass the throne to you my friend. You are a worthy successor to the legacy. LOL!! I swear, I don't even have to post on here anymore because you say exactly what I want to say...sometimes even before I can say it myself!!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

That's the thing with Shelby. I recall arguing once with one of my buddies on the GT350. C7 Z51 excels at almost all objective aspects. Other than the Voodoo engine(only considering the "coolness" here, not reliability) I don't see why I'd choose a GT350 over a C7 Z51.

IF the Voodoo engine was more reliable. And IF it had less compression and could adapt to a blower. And IF it wasn't a 12 sec car bone stock. And IF it didn't cost as much as a ZL1. Then it would be tough to pass up.But those are a LOT of "ifs" and I would not even consider one. I would just buy a damn PP2 and throw some damn coolers on it and a blower and call it a day before even thinking about a GT350. When compared to ANY Vette I wouldn't even think twice. I'd just buy the Vette.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Do you work for Ford? Why do you care about sales? The Dodge Viper was a beast, didn't sell well and died. Who cares, still a beast. If sales

I would take a Viper over a (POS) GT350 (ANY variant of GT350) any day of the week.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Well he does sort of have a point. Some people here act like someone is bashing their child if they say anything negative about the camaro. Even if it is someone who used to work at GM like Number 3. Or even if its a legit concern the response is usually oh it doesn't matter it's good enough for me or I live alone I don't care if theres no room or its not my daily driver I don't care. People here let the enthusiast in them take over.

You pointed out Ford has continually updated the Mustang since 2011. Yes they have. IS that because they fumbled the ball more than a few times sure is but the point is they still keep investing in the current product to keep interest up. Not only trying to lure people away from competition but also try to give people a reason to trade up. Maybe somebody with 15-17 S550 wants to trade up now to an 18+ because of something like PP2, Bullitt or Mach (despite that fact you don't like it which is totally fair but it if helps sell another car isn't that the goal)

I will use you as an example now, you leased your HC correct? Now not everyone is as well of financially as you blaq so just hear me out.

Say you leased a Camaro SS in 2017. Your lease is up how likely are you to lease the same car again if it's virtually unchanged from your current car or maybe you look to the competition to see what they have. BUT maybe if GM had upped the power or added new models and not just sticker packages maybe you'd get another camaro. that is the advantage of continually updating. Or even not in the lease end you just get people that are dumb with money and keep trading up lol. There are plenty of people here who have already had multiple 6th gens for various reasons. Think of how many more multiple owners there could be if they did updates /new models like Ford and Dodge do.

I think some of the frustrations come from the fact the GM has the know how/ability and in some cases all the stuff is right there for them to do it and they are just like nah were good with adding another choice of $3,000 sticker packages. And its not like GM doesn't continually update their other vehicles through out the generation

I don't want Camaro to go away. Competition makes everyone better. It just makes me sad that I can't even consider a Camaro when my lease is up.

You're cool in my book, and I'm drunk...so I'm not gonna debate you.

But...I am buying out my Hellcat and it is unchanged. Because it is THAT awesome of a car. And I plan to mod it. So your argument is moot. I love the ZL1. I would not ever consider getting rid of mine. I don't even care to mod it. And I definitely would not get rid of it for a newer one. GM hit the nail one the head with the 17 ZL1. It is an absolutely perfect car and I have never been more in love with any vehicle I have ever owned. So that should tell you something right there.

Anyway dude, always good to hear from you and I hope you are doing well. Stay safe! Happy 4th!!

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Neither, actually. I did before/after MAF reading logs and before/after acceleration tests. The K&N intake alone added a large amount of airflow to the MAF readings (2.5-3 lbs/min). I haven't done MAF logs w/ the ported TB, IM, and catback yet, but I have done acceleration tests. The ported TB, IM, and exhaust improved acceleration beyond the K&N intake only.

My best bone stock 0-60 run was 3.80 seconds on all season tires in Sport+ mode (so much for "drag mode only w/ PS4S" argument around here).
With the engine mods I hit 3.78 sec on my only attempt but that was not nearly as good of a launch as the 3.80 sec stock run. This was also in sport+ mode, same Michelin all seasons sport 3+, and no burnout on back roads. With a few launch attempts, I'm confident it would hit 3.6x. Both corrected for DA for an apples to apples comparison.

That said, my acceleration splits improved significantly before/after. My 20-70 mph time with the K&N intake only was 3.53 seconds. With the addition of the ported OEM TB and IM, and the Borla S type it improved to 3.28 seconds. Those are corrected for DA, but not wind (for what its worth both were done in DAs within 200' of each other). On the 3.53 sec run I had a tail wind, with the 3.28 sec run I had a cross wind, so the difference is even greater. It was consistently 0.05 seconds quicker for every 10 mph split even with the wind difference. Unfortunately, I never did a 20-70 mph run bone stock. These runs were done on the exact same stretch of flat road.

I haven't done any testing since I added the SVE R350 wheels (each 9lbs lighter than the factory wheels). I estimate based on some calcs I did that my 0-60 time would improve by 0.05 seconds or more, and my 20-70 mph split should drop to low 3.2x seconds.

Yea ultimately the performance gains are all that matter. I added some SVE pp2 wheels to mine with some nt05s and it's hooking a lot better but now it's easier to bog on a launch sort of like the camaro thats pretty finicky about that.

My cousin added a muffler delete cat back to his GT and he hasn't logged anything but the car noticeably picked up some power evident by when we run our cars together.

Also idk what "drag mode" argument you're talking about but I have seen first hand base a10s i n sport mode running as fast as pp1 a10s in drag mode. The drag mode seemed more consitent with quick passes but the base car in sport mode was capable of matching it in it's fastest runs though the spreads between runs were more varied.