[gtfoxy]

Originally Posted by MR's 2SS

Dealers train to screw buyers like a boxer trains to fight. But its like book knowledge compared to experience. They think they are getting over on everyone loading the vehicles up. Then they sit on the lot for 9 months.
Thats fine with the mini SUVs and commuter appliances. But for a vehicle someone buys for real work or real play they dont know jack. The only way to buy and get what you want is to order. put your specs together and shop it around to as many dealers as your willing to travel to and buy. Work them against each other.
I could not find a gas F-250 with 4.30 rears within 100 miles. What I ended up ordering was a Lariat with rubber floor. They were litterally disturbed that anyone would buy a Lariat and not get carpet... and who wants 4.30 rears... they made me give a $1,000 DP because they said they would be stuck with it if I bailed. Koons where I also shopped my order bought one in my spec and it sold in weeks.
As for a loaded Camaro... you have to understand there is definitely a market for that.
I was looking at verts for a couple of years after renting them in Fla. a few times. My wife loved them. So with her lease running down I was scanning for them. Found a 2ss vert with M-6. Sticker was 53 but we paid 46. It was December 30th. so they were ready to deal. But I bet they spent 8 months turning down offers higher than that.
Right next to our 2020 was a 2021 coupe. 2SS with magride. I would prefer the coupe myself but the wife was wanting a vert for 30 years. But even still they put a moon roof in the coupe. I would rather a coupe without moon roof for $900.
Not a lot of options available anyway so the dealers just randomly load them up. They could not understand why I wanted a rubber floor... I work in mud and salt and all whatever gets tracked in and ruins the carpet. Why would anyone ever put a carpet in a truck?
I dont think the options add weight to the Camaro. A slightly larger screen... leather... Apple car play.
The Recaros cost a lot more. But for a DD I prefer the stock 2SS seats. But it seems either because of the interior of the vert or the Recaros my wife was able to reach the pedals in the vert and even with the stock 2SS seats she had to tip toe the clutch. So vert it is.

I hear ya.

Looking for a 3rd cab & chassis work truck & it's abysmal. Either white, red or black & stripper models.

Ordering another F550 XLT pretty well equipped, with, you guessed it, no carpet.

[delthawk5]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

That's great news!


In my area however the same Camaros tend to sit on the lot for ages. Could be because they are either way overpriced LT1s or loaded up 2ss rag tops. One dealer near me gets LT1s now but they're at least 42k and they're just not moving.

Where in FL are you? When I bought my car and was living in Tampa, there were never convertibles on the lots and coupes sat there for ages. A year before, I had found a '17 SS that sat at the same dealership for 2 (!!!!!) years. They were basically giving it away at a huge loss. People wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole.

For being such a good car, the Camaro sales market is just bizarre. My '19 2SS sat in the lot for a year until I bought it. At least it had more miles that the '17 I had seen before. So it didn't sit there stagnant.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by MR's 2SS

Dealers train to screw buyers like a boxer trains to fight. But its like book knowledge compared to experience. They think they are getting over on everyone loading the vehicles up. Then they sit on the lot for 9 months.
Thats fine with the mini SUVs and commuter appliances. But for a vehicle someone buys for real work or real play they dont know jack. The only way to buy and get what you want is to order. put your specs together and shop it around to as many dealers as your willing to travel to and buy. Work them against each other.
I could not find a gas F-250 with 4.30 rears within 100 miles. What I ended up ordering was a Lariat with rubber floor. They were litterally disturbed that anyone would buy a Lariat and not get carpet... and who wants 4.30 rears... they made me give a $1,000 DP because they said they would be stuck with it if I bailed. Koons where I also shopped my order bought one in my spec and it sold in weeks.
As for a loaded Camaro... you have to understand there is definitely a market for that.
I was looking at verts for a couple of years after renting them in Fla. a few times. My wife loved them. So with her lease running down I was scanning for them. Found a 2ss vert with M-6. Sticker was 53 but we paid 46. It was December 30th. so they were ready to deal. But I bet they spent 8 months turning down offers higher than that.
Right next to our 2020 was a 2021 coupe. 2SS with magride. I would prefer the coupe myself but the wife was wanting a vert for 30 years. But even still they put a moon roof in the coupe. I would rather a coupe without moon roof for $900.
Not a lot of options available anyway so the dealers just randomly load them up. They could not understand why I wanted a rubber floor... I work in mud and salt and all whatever gets tracked in and ruins the carpet. Why would anyone ever put a carpet in a truck?
I dont think the options add weight to the Camaro. A slightly larger screen... leather... Apple car play.
The Recaros cost a lot more. But for a DD I prefer the stock 2SS seats. But it seems either because of the interior of the vert or the Recaros my wife was able to reach the pedals in the vert and even with the stock 2SS seats she had to tip toe the clutch. So vert it is.

I found this post both accurate and a bit comical. There's no "conspiracy" about screwing the consumer... It comes down to -facts-. Most buyers do not buy stripped-down models - they want options. And certain option combo's are more popular than others. Yes, dealers can sell the base models and sometimes they sell quickly. But it costs exactly the same to move a car through inventory as a base model as it does for one with options that people seek out. As the business owner, they want to maximize their profit and do so by stocking vehicles that provide them a higher margin.

Toyota doesn't even -allow- orders. They build the vehicles the way THEY want to and the dealers take them. Period. The best you can do is place what's called a "Preference Order" which means that they may re-route a specifically-equipped vehicle to your dealership if one rolls off of the line built that way.

Did you consider that the reason the other dealer sold the truck that they ordered to your spec quickly was because those kinds of vehicles are impossible to find? That's different from them being popular... Just because they sold QTY 1 built like that, and did it quickly, doesn't mean that stocking them would jump their sales numbers...

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

When those people realize that gm doesn't stand behind their products they won't be future buyers.

Sadly, GM absolutely does -not- stand behind the products like they should. Their engineers and QA process leaves a lot to be desired in a number of fit and finish areas. They have spent a lot of time (and money) developing excuses as to why things are considered to be "in spec" instead of ensuring that things are correct before they leave the factory. In the last six or seven years, I've been appalled at what I've learned about what they consider "perfectly acceptable" as it pertains to various defects in the paint (like large clear coat drips and debris in the paint AND the clear coat). It makes me wonder how some vehicles manage to escape the factory with a quality paint job given how adamant they are that their crappy spray and wet sand process is "good enough".

[delthawk5]

Originally Posted by ember1205

Sadly, GM absolutely does -not- stand behind the products like they should. Their engineers and QA process leaves a lot to be desired in a number of fit and finish areas. They have spent a lot of time (and money) developing excuses as to why things are considered to be "in spec" instead of ensuring that things are correct before they leave the factory. In the last six or seven years, I've been appalled at what I've learned about what they consider "perfectly acceptable" as it pertains to various defects in the paint (like large clear coat drips and debris in the paint AND the clear coat). It makes me wonder how some vehicles manage to escape the factory with a quality paint job given how adamant they are that their crappy spray and wet sand process is "good enough".

Since I plan on keeping my car for a while, the first thing I did after looking at the factory paint (not to mention the dealership had destroyed the clear coat with brushes), was a complete paint correction and high end ceramic coating. Seeing how GM paint has degraded in old cars around town, the $1200 I spent on that is probably a better deal than having to repaint the car.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by delthawk5

Since I plan on keeping my car for a while, the first thing I did after looking at the factory paint (not to mention the dealership had destroyed the clear coat with brushes), was a complete paint correction and high end ceramic coating. Seeing how GM paint has degraded in old cars around town, the $1200 I spent on that is probably a better deal than having to repaint the car.

I hear ya...

The issue with full paint correct these days is that you have very little clear coat to begin with and you're taking some of it away to correct issues that shouldn't be there in the first place. And, while ceramic coatings add protection, they don't replace what the clear coat can do and you have to keep them up. Personally, I focus on a quickly touched-up SiO2 type of sealant that I do at home for cheap and can easily touch up the whole car in about 20-30 minutes after it's been washed.

[delthawk5]

Originally Posted by ember1205

I hear ya...

The issue with full paint correct these days is that you have very little clear coat to begin with and you're taking some of it away to correct issues that shouldn't be there in the first place. And, while ceramic coatings add protection, they don't replace what the clear coat can do and you have to keep them up. Personally, I focus on a quickly touched-up SiO2 type of sealant that I do at home for cheap and can easily touch up the whole car in about 20-30 minutes after it's been washed.

Yeah. My clear coat already looked like scratched up ice cream swirl. So it basically didn't matter at that point. That's why I got the stronger 10h ceramic coating. Part of the upkeep process is touching it up every once in a while with a SiO2 spray.

[MR's 2SS]

GM stood behind my 07 2500 truck just fine. But the fender rusted. I went for a Ford alumaduty. Fender wont rust. Steering stabilizers have been on consecutive TSBs... I went and bought one from a quality aftermarket supplier. Pisses me off they couldnt just spend a few more dollars on a 60 thousand dollar truck to fix an issue everyone everywhere knows how to fix.... while they make consecutive replacements so marginally better that its a joke.
You could buy a Honda.
We got good service leasing Infinities but I wouldnt really seek to buy one and plan on keeping it long term. Although we almost bought our Q60. The previous model with NA 3.2L 6... But I understand even those can be a problem long term.
Chrysler products rust to hell.
I heard some of the Subarus had trans failures that locked up all 4 wheels.
My sisters last X3 was such a POS it was in the shop 25 times in 3 years and the lease returned with only 6,000 miles.
I can see by your garage your favorite ride is from 1966 and I can identify with that but some of us cant afford to just have a garage queen or something that is too special to drive hell out of.
Im not really aware of any of these manufacturers truly standing behind much of anything but their own asses.
The vast majority of cars have fallen into the appliance category and are totally undesirable. Stood behind or not.
For the most part Camaro owners are very happy with their cars. In love with them in fact.
Made in U.S.A. as is my Ford truck. So I can feel somewhat happy to be supporting my fellow workers. The companies they work for... not so much but at least it helps secure their jobs.
GM moved truck manufacture out of the US so I didnt even consider their trucks. Ram.. same thing plus rust and tranny issues.
If politics continues unchallenged and things keep progressing as they are we are enjoying the last real performance cars widely available with a thumping gas engine.
Even though the EVs are showing exciting acceleration. When they want to they can just do a wireless update and turn them into slugs... Or control them via satellite.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by redcoats1976

this is true,and i know chevy needs to make a profit,but the high cost of labor is eating them up.im sure its great to be in a union,but if you are not in one its hard to buy a new car.

You can't blame the union for the ridiculous price of a car that has a plethora of Chinese made parts in it. When Chevy sells a pickup at a $10k discount what is that telling you about how much it costs to build it? They are still making money. They'd make alot more if they actually didn't screw customers with
inferior Chinese components and tell the customer, "It's a month out of warranty" so stick it".
This is why Toyota because the number one selling vehicle. They take care of their customers in a fashion that screams, "remember us when you want your next vehicle".

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by ember1205

I found this post both accurate and a bit comical. There's no "conspiracy" about screwing the consumer... It comes down to -facts-. Most buyers do not buy stripped-down models - they want options. And certain option combo's are more popular than others. Yes, dealers can sell the base models and sometimes they sell quickly. But it costs exactly the same to move a car through inventory as a base model as it does for one with options that people seek out. As the business owner, they want to maximize their profit and do so by stocking vehicles that provide them a higher margin.

Toyota doesn't even -allow- orders. They build the vehicles the way THEY want to and the dealers take them. Period. The best you can do is place what's called a "Preference Order" which means that they may re-route a specifically-equipped vehicle to your dealership if one rolls off of the line built that way.

Did you consider that the reason the other dealer sold the truck that they ordered to your spec quickly was because those kinds of vehicles are impossible to find? That's different from them being popular... Just because they sold QTY 1 built like that, and did it quickly, doesn't mean that stocking them would jump their sales numbers...



Sadly, GM absolutely does -not- stand behind the products like they should. Their engineers and QA process leaves a lot to be desired in a number of fit and finish areas. They have spent a lot of time (and money) developing excuses as to why things are considered to be "in spec" instead of ensuring that things are correct before they leave the factory. In the last six or seven years, I've been appalled at what I've learned about what they consider "perfectly acceptable" as it pertains to various defects in the paint (like large clear coat drips and debris in the paint AND the clear coat). It makes me wonder how some vehicles manage to escape the factory with a quality paint job given how adamant they are that their crappy spray and wet sand process is "good enough".

It is the "Engineering" defects that piss me off. Like the instrument panel on 2007-2013 Chevy and GMC trucks and SUV's. They crack because it saved GM a couple pennies up front. Then there is the A8 transmission which is just flat a pos. When the manufacturer tells the customer that these are "Normal"
it is very telling about what they think about a future customer. Buyers have friends and family and these issues aren't acceptable when considering the prices gm is demanding.
Some things are just not acceptable. GM used to preach about the quality of their product and "If we don't maintain 1st place in quality they will close the factory". Heard it for years and while constantly performing at the top in the quality ratings it didn't stop them from closing the factory. Then the dealer is an entirely different issue. The dealer get's paid to fix gm screw ups but not as much as a customer pay.
Toyota on the other hand will unwind a sale and put the customer in another vehicle to make them happy. That is why they are number 1 in sales. It's just good business. Barra makes 22 million a year and sleeps at night knowing there are a trainload of unhappy customers..

[gtfoxy]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

You can't blame the union for the ridiculous price of a car that has a plethora of Chinese made parts in it. When Chevy sells a pickup at a $10k discount what is that telling you about how much it costs to build it? They are still making money. They'd make alot more if they actually didn't screw customers with
inferior Chinese components and tell the customer, "It's a month out of warranty" so stick it".
This is why Toyota because the number one selling vehicle. They take care of their customers in a fashion that screams, "remember us when you want your next vehicle".

But OMG their new seat belt dinger is annoying enough to make you want to kick a puppy.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by tripowergto

The key word is "retail" sales. Hertz stopped buying Camaro convertibles in FL.

Hertz is going under and got rid of a lot of their performance cars last year.


I live about 40 miles from hertz HQ here in FL.


When I was looking last Sept they had some really good deals on the SS and Mustang GT. I mean under 30 thousand miles and 2019 and 2020 models.


You could get a 2ss ragtop, 28k miles 2019 for about 32k! The only thing missing was they didn't have NPP but that kind of price that's a steal. Still has a bit of warranty left too but the downside is you know that car was ran hard and not broken in properly.


Same with the Mustang GT Premium. Killer deals on 2019 ragtop premiums for about 29 to 31k they were going for.


If you were willing to roll the dice on a fleet cars those were amazing deals for a car only one or two years old.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by delthawk5

Where in FL are you? When I bought my car and was living in Tampa, there were never convertibles on the lots and coupes sat there for ages. A year before, I had found a '17 SS that sat at the same dealership for 2 (!!!!!) years. They were basically giving it away at a huge loss. People wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole.

For being such a good car, the Camaro sales market is just bizarre. My '19 2SS sat in the lot for a year until I bought it. At least it had more miles that the '17 I had seen before. So it didn't sit there stagnant.

I'm in Southwest FL, Punta Gorda. The Chevy dealers from Bradenton on south to Naples just don't carry a lot of v8 Camaros unless they're ragtop and they sit on the lot for ages usually.


The dealer near me finally got V8 Camaros but they were loaded up LT1s nearly 43k and they sit.


Jenkins in Venice last Sept had very good deals on left over 1SS.


The dealers here in Southwest FL hate carrying performance cars. They like to carry trucks, vans, and SUVs that cater to old people who want big cars.


Only one Ford Dealer, Sam Gallaway Ford in Ft. Myers carries normal Mustang GTs not loaded to the max.

[s346k]

i do my best not to buy new cars. what i wanted in a camaro was pretty easy to find. i'm still DDing an almost 25 year old, 300k mile jalopy. when it's time to pull the card on the DD i'm afraid i'll have to order what i want (bronco) as i already know there won't be a dealer on the planet who will spec one that way.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

Toyota on the other hand will unwind a sale and put the customer in another vehicle to make them happy. That is why they are number 1 in sales. It's just good business. Barra makes 22 million a year and sleeps at night knowing there are a trainload of unhappy customers..

They also have basically moved to a hard pricing model as well. There is no more negotiating with them. You pay what the market dictates, end of conversation. So, they've basically fixed their profit margin (which is way higher than it should be) and are telling EVERY customer to stick it right from the start. Unwinding a few deals here and there is a small price to pay when you're making money hand over fist.