[ADM PERFORMANCE]

Originally Posted by Ian SS

So many things wrong with this post.

The cost to switch to e85 is simply the cost of whatever a tune would cost you, which you would be paying anyway if you went with a meth setup. You can literally drain the tank, fill up e85, and tune the car. No other costs involved.

Any additional costs involved with e85 is if someone elects to use a Flex Fuel system, in which case you can budget another $400. This is purely optional and NOT required to run e85.

The costs at the pump are a wash. The car uses 30% more fuel but also costs on average a $1/gal less at the pump. 91 here is $3.10 and e85 is $2.00.

Also my local pumps both have over 80% ethanol content.

Great Info -

[LibertyHill]

Originally Posted by Ian SS

So many things wrong with this post.

The cost to switch to e85 is simply the cost of whatever a tune would cost you, which you would be paying anyway if you went with a meth setup. You can literally drain the tank, fill up e85, and tune the car. No other costs involved.

No, we're talking FI already tuned at the limit of the fueling system. Adding E85 now requires $1500+ in parts plus labor and the retune, and the additional fuel is still not enough to fully support the power capabilities of E85.

[toohighpsi]

First of all I would not run straight meth in any of the systems I've seen available, even the ones that use good lines still store the meth under the hood of the vehicle in a plastic tank. Have you ever experienced a methanol fire? I can assure you it's not pretty. If you were running to the gas station to get fuel for your lawnmower would you put the gas can under the hood of your car to transport it? - Didn't think so.

Relying on meth injection for your fuel source is risky, these systems are no where near OEM level of reliability and if they run out, or the pump fails - possibly engine failure will result before you realize there was a problem.

Second of all, while meth offers some benefit to reduce IAT and provide some amount of higher octane, it has no where near the knock prevention capability of water. That's why these systems originated as WATER INJECTION systems. They had plenty of methanol in the piston aircraft days, but they used water with a touch of methanol to prevent freezing - not straight methanol.

Water works in the combustion chamber to reduce the temp at end of compression and stabilizes combustion. It need to enter the cylinder as water droplets and then removed heat during the compression process by means of it's latent heat of vaporization during the phase change from water to steam. This significantly lowers the in-cylinder temperature at the start of ignition to prevent detonation. Grab your favorite thermodynamics book, look in the back for the steam tables, and you can get a quick grasp of how much energy (temperature) removal we're talking about here, it's alot.

In a warm climate I normally run straight water, if you have freezing conditions then the simple blue windshield washer fluid (-20) will have about 30% meth and prevent freezing in your system.

[Ian SS]

Originally Posted by LibertyHill

No, we're talking FI already tuned at the limit of the fueling system. Adding E85 now requires $1500+ in parts plus labor and the retune, and the additional fuel is still not enough to fully support the power capabilities of E85.

Ah, wasn't paying attention.

Still, half my post is relevant to this thread.

[1LE801]

Originally Posted by Ian SS

So many things wrong with this post.

The cost to switch to e85 is simply the cost of whatever a tune would cost you, which you would be paying anyway if you went with a meth setup. You can literally drain the tank, fill up e85, and tune the car. No other costs involved.

Any additional costs involved with e85 is if someone elects to use a Flex Fuel system, in which case you can budget another $400. This is purely optional and NOT required to run e85.

The costs at the pump are a wash. The car uses 30% more fuel but also costs on average a $1/gal less at the pump. 91 here is $3.10 and e85 is $2.00.

Also my local pumps both have over 80% ethanol content.

No they don't have over 80%. You're fooling yourself.

Run E85. No sweat off my back. However if you're FI it's more complicated than a tune. Not to mention the inconsistency of the Ethanol content. The only way to get consistent Ethanol content is to buy it from VP or someone, making it a PITA for some. Not saying it's a bad idea, just saying there's a little more to it for most people than you are letting on.

[1LE801]

Tuning school did a video, recently. Pump E85 was tested out and the true Ethanol was proved to be E40. Just sayin...

[Ian SS]

Originally Posted by 1LE801

Tuning school did a video, recently. Pump E85 was tested out and the true Ethanol was proved to be E40. Just sayin...

Every pump is different. In southern California, most pumps are minimum E70. My two local pumps never show less than 78%, backed by multiple people with ethanol gauges.

[wnta1ss]

Originally Posted by 1LE801

Tuning school did a video, recently. Pump E85 was tested out and the true Ethanol was proved to be E40. Just sayin...

Are you really that gullible that you think ONE video of ONE sample means that's what every single pump in the whole country has?

[1LE801]

Originally Posted by wnta1ss

Are you really that gullible that you think ONE video of ONE sample means that's what every single pump in the whole country has?

Not at all but it does illustrate the inconsistencies.

[SGDM]

Originally Posted by toohighpsi

First of all I would not run straight meth in any of the systems I've seen available, even the ones that use good lines still store the meth under the hood of the vehicle in a plastic tank. Have you ever experienced a methanol fire? I can assure you it's not pretty. If you were running to the gas station to get fuel for your lawnmower would you put the gas can under the hood of your car to transport it? - Didn't think so.

Relying on meth injection for your fuel source is risky, these systems are no where near OEM level of reliability and if they run out, or the pump fails - possibly engine failure will result before you realize there was a problem.

Second of all, while meth offers some benefit to reduce IAT and provide some amount of higher octane, it has no where near the knock prevention capability of water. That's why these systems originated as WATER INJECTION systems. They had plenty of methanol in the piston aircraft days, but they used water with a touch of methanol to prevent freezing - not straight methanol.

Water works in the combustion chamber to reduce the temp at end of compression and stabilizes combustion. It need to enter the cylinder as water droplets and then removed heat during the compression process by means of it's latent heat of vaporization during the phase change from water to steam. This significantly lowers the in-cylinder temperature at the start of ignition to prevent detonation. Grab your favorite thermodynamics book, look in the back for the steam tables, and you can get a quick grasp of how much energy (temperature) removal we're talking about here, it's alot.

In a warm climate I normally run straight water, if you have freezing conditions then the simple blue windshield washer fluid (-20) will have about 30% meth and prevent freezing in your system.

Dang...you took the words right out of my mouth. Well done. Also used in turbine engine aircraft, hence the black smoke, gotta run em rich. I will educate those that want to be, good enough for a bunch of dudes working in a hangar in the '30's with slide rules.

Piston-engined petrol military aircraft used water injection technology prior to World War II to increase takeoff power. This was used so that heavily-laden fighters could take off from shorter runways, climb faster, and quickly reach high altitudes to intercept enemy bomber formations. Some fighter aircraft also used water injection for a boost in short bursts during dogfights.

As a general rule, the fuel mixture is set at full rich on an aircraft engine when running it at high power settings (such as during takeoff). The extra fuel does not burn; its only purpose is to evaporate to absorb heat. This uses fuel faster and also decreases the efficiency of the combustion process. By using water injection, the cooling effect of the water lets the fuel mixture run leaner at its maximum power setting. Many military aircraft engines of the 1940s utilized a pressure carburetor, a type of fuel metering system similar to a throttle body injection system. In a water-injected engine, the pressure carburetor features a mechanical derichment valve that makes the system nearly automatic. When the pilot turns on the water injection pump, water pressure moves the derichment valve to restrict fuel flow to lean the mixture while at the same time mixing the water/methanol fluid into the system. When the system runs out of fluid the derichment valve shuts and cuts off the water injection system, while enriching the fuel mixture to provide a cooling quench to prevent sudden detonation.

Hence, ends the lesson. Water works!

[1LE801]

I'm not arguing at all but I wouldn't base my decision on 1940s aircraft mechanics. Water doesn't clean and it's not a fuel. Water injection has a place but it won't help with fueling on DI cars that are FI and don't want to buy pumps and injectors...

[SGDM]

Originally Posted by 1LE801

I'm not arguing at all but I wouldn't base my decision on 1940s aircraft mechanics. Water doesn't clean and it's not a fuel. Water injection has a place but it won't help with fueling on DI cars that are FI and don't want to buy pumps and injectors...

Oh, no sir, and I don't take it as that. The discussion by the OP is to meth or not to meth. My point, and I have been thinking about this for a long time and discussed with experts in this field, both aviation and performance cars. I have been accused of thinking outside the box and I know for a fact that there are "hot rodders" out there that have experimented with water injection and a mix of water/meth-very low percentage, injection into FI engines. It's just physics, just like toohighpsi said. Our end state for these cars is lower temps and produce more HP, safely.

[1LE801]

Originally Posted by SGDM

Oh, no sir, and I don't take it as that. The discussion by the OP is to meth or not to meth. My point, and I have been thinking about this for a long time and discussed with experts in this field, both aviation and performance cars. I have been accused of thinking outside the box and I know for a fact that there are "hot rodders" out there that have experimented with water injection and a mix of water/meth-very low percentage, injection into FI engines. It's just physics, just like toohighpsi said. Our end state for these cars is lower temps and produce more HP, safely.

I love these threads. Very good info to be had. I like your ride!

[ADM PERFORMANCE]

Here is a great write up of a car with methanol and what it can do to some metals. I am not tryig to scare anybody, just trying to inform. SGDM is also trying to give as much info as he can to help the topic

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319342