[Bob54]

Thank you all for your comments. I have a 2016 A8 at the moment but the dealer near me has a manual 2021. The Carvana trade in for my car is almost what I paid (with the GM card points discount). The dealer has not really discounted the car but they have an LT1 discounted 5K. If they discount the 2021 manual 5K and using my current GM points I could end up with a 5 year newer Camaro for about 8K. (Plus fees and taxes which annoy me).

My first drive after I got my permit was in a manual Vega. My brother was teaching me while drinking beer. (Never ride the pedal or get yelled at.) I am pretty good with a manual but I live in a hilly area and get pretty anxious with people get on my butt on hills. I am sure they are people who never drove manuals.

My take from this is that C6 hill start assist is pretty good. The use of the E brake may also be an option. Looks like I will take a test drive if they drop the price.

Thanks!

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Bob54

Thank you all for your comments. I have a 2016 A8 at the moment but the dealer near me has a manual 2021. The Carvana trade in for my car is almost what I paid (with the GM card points discount). The dealer has not really discounted the car but they have an LT1 discounted 5K. If they discount the 2021 manual 5K and using my current GM points I could end up with a 5 year newer Camaro for about 8K. (Plus fees and taxes which annoy me).

My first drive after I got my permit was in a manual Vega. My brother was teaching me while drinking beer. (Never ride the pedal or get yelled at.) I am pretty good with a manual but I live in a hilly area and get pretty anxious with people get on my butt on hills. I am sure they are people who never drove manuals.

My take from this is that C6 hill start assist is pretty good. The use of the E brake may also be an option. Looks like I will take a test drive if they drop the price.

Thanks!

Really curious at what you're looking at in that area. I'm not aware of -any- LT1 Camaro's in your neck of the woods (LT's, yes - LT1's, no). And there's only ONE manual 2021 in that same area that's new and I would caution you to avoid that dealer like the plague if it's that specific car you're thinking of.

[Bob54]

It is Quirk Chevy in Braintree MA. Overall despite one trip to small claims court and a lemon law letter I recommend them. It is a "New 2021 Chevrolet LT1 Camaro" that is advertised at 5K off. I think I have bought 5 cars from them, maybe 6. They are walkable from where I live. I showed up back in the day to buy a Trailblazer advertised in the paper at an incredible low price. The salesman said "you don't even know the color" when I showed him the ad. I replied "I don't care" (It was green). Overall I find if you read the small print they are legit. At this point we sort of understand each other.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Bob54

It is Quirk Chevy in Braintree MA. Overall despite one trip to small claims court and a lemon law letter I recommend them. It is a "New 2021 Chevrolet LT1 Camaro" that is advertised at 5K off. I think I have bought 5 cars from them, maybe 6. They are walkable from where I live. I showed up back in the day to buy a Trailblazer advertised in the paper at an incredible low price. The salesman said "you don't even know the color" when I showed him the ad. I replied "I don't care" (It was green). Overall I find if you read the small print they are legit. At this point we sort of understand each other.

Interestingly, NEITHER of those cars showed up in my search. The color on the LT1 is beautiful and that motor is awesome. Personally, since I specifically bought the car AS A CONVERTIBLE, I could not give that up.

If you're going to sell off your current car, maybe look around for a private sale used SS convertible. Who knows... mine might end up on the market after all if I line up a deal for a 2022 with a couple of slightly different options than I currently have.

Personally, I believe that the combination of stout motor (V8), solid clutch, Hill Start Assist, and Active Rev Match make my car one that would be perfectly fine to learn to drive stick on (so long as the person learning actually has a bit of aptitude to pick that sort of thing up). If you're RE learning, the car is simply a dream to drive. The biggest issue I have is that I keep forgetting there's a sixth gear!

BTW... Selling your car outright and then buying new means you're paying sales tax on 100% of the purchase price. If you trade the car, you pay sales tax only on the difference. Be sure to understand that part when deciding if you want to trade or not.

[Bob54]

The sales tax thing is annoying and I cant even express how annoyed I am with the property tax. In MA property tax is very expensive in the first year (approx 3% of sticker but it goes down really fast.) The thing for me that potentially makes everything work is the GM card points. I doubt I will pull the trigger since my 2016 is perfect with only about 34K miles. I do miss the feeling of a connection with the road that I had with a manual but I am not sure it is worth the stress of being stopped on a hill. Now that the autos have better MPG and 0 to 60 it mitigates the need to feel connected.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Bob54

The sales tax thing is annoying and I cant even express how annoyed I am with the property tax. In MA property tax is very expensive in the first year (approx 3% of sticker but it goes down really fast.) The thing for me that potentially makes everything work is the GM card points. I doubt I will pull the trigger since my 2016 is perfect with only about 34K miles. I do miss the feeling of a connection with the road that I had with a manual but I am not sure it is worth the stress of being stopped on a hill. Now that the autos have better MPG and 0 to 60 it mitigates the need to feel connected.

Taxes are a fact of life, sadly. But, I understand where you're coming from.

Yes, the auto's have come a very long way. The A8 is somewhat maligned, but apparently is still quite nice so long as you've had the fluid flush done to correct the shudder. The A10 is pretty well liked overall.

Still, I love having the M6 in mine as a weekend / fun car. If it were my daily driver, I may see it differently.

[ARCamaroGuy]

In Arkansas, you can sell your car and buy a different one in 60 or 90 days (can't remember) pay the difference just like a trade in.

I did this in 2019 when I sold my CTS in September and bought my SS in October.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Alpha1BC

I'm also not sure what the big deal with the electric park brake is either?

Reaching for a fiddly little switch that you have no way of modulating the action of, vs a handbrake lever that you have full control over. For most of us older guys, e-PB is an answer to a question that never needed to be asked in the first place (it's rare that I even use the P-brake method). Had e-PB on a Legacy GT - hated it, used it as little as possible. Some of us had to learn hill starts when the P-brake was a foot pedal, and still demonstrate skill at starting on a hill without rolling back in a MT car as part of our actual road test.


Hill start assist can get in the way of starting up gently if you're inclined to use as little throttle as you can get away with using. I don't know if it's any better in the 6th gens, but more than a few 5th gen folks found out about this the hard way.


FWIW, Bob, I grew up only a few miles to the south of Braintree.


Norm

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Hill start assist can get in the way of starting up gently if you're inclined to use as little throttle as you can get away with using. I don't know if it's any better in the 6th gens, but more than a few 5th gen folks found out about this the hard way.


Norm

How so? And what did they "find out the hard way"?

HSA applies the brakes to hold the car in place. It takes very little "pressure" against the braking by engaging the clutch/transmission to get the brakes to release. I've never felt like HSA required me to apply more throttle before the car would move.

[Alpha1BC]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Reaching for a fiddly little switch that you have no way of modulating the action of, vs a handbrake lever that you have full control over. For most of us older guys, e-PB is an answer to a question that never needed to be asked in the first place (it's rare that I even use the P-brake method). Had e-PB on a Legacy GT - hated it, used it as little as possible. Some of us had to learn hill starts when the P-brake was a foot pedal, and still demonstrate skill at starting on a hill without rolling back in a MT car as part of our actual road test.


Hill start assist can get in the way of starting up gently if you're inclined to use as little throttle as you can get away with using. I don't know if it's any better in the 6th gens, but more than a few 5th gen folks found out about this the hard way.


Norm

I can understand being used to the lever brake, that's what I drove with for my first 10 years of driving manual as well. I'd still argue that EPB is hands down a way better piece of technology and would much rather have it on my cars, though. On the downside you can't pull it to slide around a corner anymore and can't physically feel then engagement, but on the upside it can apply itself automatically if it senses the vehicle starting to roll and no one is around, it can automatically cycle itself to keep it from getting seized when the driver doesn't regularly use it, can automatically release when the driver forgets to and drives off, can modulate itself to stop the car in emergency situations, can be applied by other modules in different failure states, and can even self-diagnose to an extent and alert the driver if something fails with the system instead of finding out after it's too late. On top of all that it's not a new technology anymore and seems to have had most of the initial kinks worked out and has been a well-integrated and appreciated technology upgrade in the last 5+ years I've spend in Camaros and other cars with it.

Same sort of thing for hill start assist. I was taught initially how to do it by roasting the clutch, later learned that's a no-no (especially in high-power cars) and learned how to launch on hills using heel-toe instead. I'd still take HSA any day because it's just just as good if not better than trying to do it manually, it's simpler to use, and I've had nothing but good experiences in the last 5+ years of having it. It's always been smooth to release and non-intrusive. I can't speak for 5th gen since I've never used it, but 6th gen has been solid-performing for quite some time as well as in other vehicles I've had it in.

I try not to be too opinionated on here and apologize if I'm coming across as such, but it really grinds my gears when there are complaints against newer systems like EPB and HSA that really only boil down to "I'm not used to it so I don't like it," since that ultimately can kill technological progress if enough people do it.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Alpha1BC

I can understand being used to the lever brake, that's what I drove with for my first 10 years of driving manual as well. I'd still argue that EPB is hands down a way better piece of technology and would much rather have it on my cars, though. On the downside you can't pull it to slide around a corner anymore and can't physically feel then engagement, but on the upside it can apply itself automatically if it senses the vehicle starting to roll and no one is around, it can automatically cycle itself to keep it from getting seized when the driver doesn't regularly use it, can automatically release when the driver forgets to and drives off, can modulate itself to stop the car in emergency situations, can be applied by other modules in different failure states, and can even self-diagnose to an extent and alert the driver if something fails with the system instead of finding out after it's too late. On top of all that it's not a new technology anymore and seems to have had most of the initial kinks worked out and has been a well-integrated and appreciated technology upgrade in the last 5+ years I've spend in Camaros and other cars with it.

Same sort of thing for hill start assist. I was taught initially how to do it by roasting the clutch, later learned that's a no-no (especially in high-power cars) and learned how to launch on hills using heel-toe instead. I'd still take HSA any day because it's just just as good if not better than trying to do it manually, it's simpler to use, and I've had nothing but good experiences in the last 5+ years of having it. It's always been smooth to release and non-intrusive. I can't speak for 5th gen since I've never used it, but 6th gen has been solid-performing for quite some time as well as in other vehicles I've had it in.

I try not to be too opinionated on here and apologize if I'm coming across as such, but it really grinds my gears when there are complaints against newer systems like EPB and HSA that really only boil down to "I'm not used to it so I don't like it," since that ultimately can kill technological progress if enough people do it.

Of all the things that the EPB "can" do, how many of them are actually programmed into the Camaro?

With regard to "technical progress" - it isn't progress if you lose a significant amount of functionality for the sake of something new. There are far too many times that something "new" is done simply because it's new. No actual progress, no actual benefit.

As far as the EPB goes, I don't like the way that certain functions now work. The lack of being able to actually feel the brake being engaged and with what force matters to me. I can't stand that I have to pull up on the button and then sit there and WAIT to see if it engaged before I can get out of the car. While there may be things that the EPB "can" do that a manual brake couldn't, there's also no reason that both couldn't exist at the same time on the vehicle. The reason the Camaro doesn't have a manual parking brake has nothing at all to do with actual technical progress and everything to do with complete lack of a location in the car to place the handle and a total unwillingness to explore a pedal-based system like I have in my GM truck.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by ember1205

How so? And what did they "find out the hard way"?

If you first start off using hardly any throttle at all until you actually start moving, the engine could be stalled. Not everybody needs to use much clutch slip to get moving.

Eventually it was discovered that since the 5th gen AT cars didn't have HSA you could swap the AT sensor in and eliminate the HSA entirely. I think it was the yaw sensor, and I'm not sure if that swap works any more.


Norm

[Alpha1BC]

Originally Posted by ember1205

Of all the things that the EPB "can" do, how many of them are actually programmed into the Camaro?

With regard to "technical progress" - it isn't progress if you lose a significant amount of functionality for the sake of something new. There are far too many times that something "new" is done simply because it's new. No actual progress, no actual benefit.

As far as the EPB goes, I don't like the way that certain functions now work. The lack of being able to actually feel the brake being engaged and with what force matters to me. I can't stand that I have to pull up on the button and then sit there and WAIT to see if it engaged before I can get out of the car. While there may be things that the EPB "can" do that a manual brake couldn't, there's also no reason that both couldn't exist at the same time on the vehicle. The reason the Camaro doesn't have a manual parking brake has nothing at all to do with actual technical progress and everything to do with complete lack of a location in the car to place the handle and a total unwillingness to explore a pedal-based system like I have in my GM truck.

Most of the functions listed are already on the Camaro I believe, just the major benefits to it aren't really seen except for in failed cases that don't happen that often.

I totally understand that not all technologies are great. Unfortunately, some stuff that looks good on paper and in earlier development shows significant hinderances once it's released to the public just because there are so many ways customers use it. There's good in the situation either way though because companies can still learn from that, they just take on a financial hit because the product risks not selling if there's something that wrong with it.

EPB is definitely not one of those features in it's current state, though. The increased functionality greatly outweighs the minimal cons their are. You have to consider the more obscure use cases where something's failed. The everyday person won't necessarily see that condition, but if it does ever happen you'll be super glad it's there. Just using it as a parking brake sure it might be a little worse, but that's not the whole picture by a long shot. It's <5s for the EPB to apply so it's not like it's an excruciatingly long wait, and not having the tactile feedback of the lever or pedal is one of those "I'm not used to it so I don't like it" arguments. Basically every other system on modern cars (windows, HVAC, throttle, ignitions, engine spark, even brakes and steering on some cars) are controlled by the driver manipulating some form of electronic switch to control something else, so it's kind of interesting that people are so against doing the same with something as simple as a park brake.

And sure GM could put a secondary pedal or lever in, but it also seems silly to spend the money and time to develop and validate a redundant and less-capable system compared to what's already on the car simply for nostalgia's sake. The name of the game nowadays in the auto industry is safety, and with EPB being the safer option by a pretty large margin it's kinda the no-brainer choice from the perspective of a company.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Alpha1BC

Most of the functions listed are already on the Camaro I believe, just the major benefits to it aren't really seen except for in failed cases that don't happen that often.

Yeah, I can get that. The problem is that a lot of day-to-day use was removed in favor of the "just in case" stuff that is seldom seen or needed.

Originally Posted by Alpha1BC

It's <5s for the EPB to apply so it's not like it's an excruciatingly long wait

I see 5s as excruciatingly long to apply the parking brake - especially when my previous experience was far less that ONE second with a hand or foot brake.

If it takes 5s to apply, how far does your car have to roll before the car will attempt to apply the EPB? And then it will roll for up to five more seconds before it's fully applied. Seems to me that isn't going to be overly helpful.