[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by Thor142

No. The Camaro isn't selling because it's too expensive. Your average Joe who doesn't spend all day on here or M6g is buying the affordable V8 coupe

People are willing to pay a small premium for a comparable product. Again, GM listened to people that already owned vehciles with a huge blind spot to ask them what they wanted. They needed to ask those who were choosing the competition.

Originally Posted by Thor142

No the general public doesn't agree. The general public is buying the affordable sport coupe.

Yes, the affordable coupe that makes a better daily driver. Cost is a factor, but for the general public, the blind spots are real and the trunk space is pitiful.

Originally Posted by Thor142

You definitely should....then grow a mullet.

I already have one.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

You're making it sound like that's a bad thing.



In the end, there are plenty of cars for everyone to enjoy for their particular reasons, however logical, hysterical, or somewhere in between.

Just for the record, the 6g Camaro SS I test drove had amazing rearward visibility....





....compared to my Lotus Exige S, which doesn't have a rear window. See how it's all relative?

As long as she's making the payment on your Lotus.

[Bhobbs]

I had a mullet growing up. It was pretty sweet.

[90503]

FWIW They have the classes made up by price....(a pretty wide spread)....I thought the GT350 with carbon fiber wheels was more than 65K....

It looks like the 350R is the quickest in that "class"....The ZL-1 should be in that class also....

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

I'm not quite sure where I quoted " Different engine sizes, different classes...." , but I thought it was clear in my statements throughout. Engine sizes don't matter. Forced induction VS naturally aspirated does (for the track), as does V6 vs V8.

I am glad you clarified, but I still have some questions: Why did you bring up FI vs. N/A, as none of the cars we were talking about are FI, they are all N/A. Second, why can't we compare the V6 vs. the V8? In this case, they are both track capable cars, and depending on options, they are similar in price. This is where the quote above that you didn't recognize comes from. Your post #295 ("No-one in their right mind would cross shop the V6 1lE and the GT. Different engine sizes, different classes. ") It seems like an arbitrary constraint you added to the conversation, to intentionally handicap the GM cars.

There very well may be some people out there that want to track their car, and performance is important to them, and they may have a price constraint that is in the range of the GTPP and V6 1LE. We can therefore compare them. The GTPP will have a V8 (which the buyer may like more, just because), and it will have a better trunk and outward visibility. The V6 1LE will probably be better at the track, you get the dual mode exhaust, and an optional performance data recorder, but will come with compromises we discussed above. It will come down to which is a higher priority, comfort or performance, and obviously preference (to brand or number or cylinders).

Here is some perspective. You are currently in a "6th gen Camaro 1LE" forum, posting under the "1LE faster than...." thread, telling us we can't compare the V6 1LE to what Ford has to offer with the Mustang in the same price range? Really? This is a dedicated section for the 1LE optioned cars, and some test results just came out on the two different cars that have the 1LE option available. I think it only natural to discuss how these two cars compare to other cars, especially what Ford has to offer due to obvious reasons.

I, myself, am very impressed with the 1LE option package on both cars. It is obvious that these cars are punching WAY above their weight class. If all you have to offer to the conversation is that you bought the Mustang because of trunk space and visibility, we have heard that before. You are not bringing anything new to the table. And it doesn't have much to do with the 1LE package. And most folks looking at what the 1LE package has to offer are not worried about their golf game. They are worried about lap times. And not coincidentally, here we are, in a 1LE forum, trying to talk about the track times the 1LE's just laid down, and you are talking ".... but the trunk space...." Do you see why I am confused? Help me understand your point.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I am glad you clarified, but I still have some questions: Why did you bring up FI vs. N/A, as none of the cars we were talking about are FI, they are all N/A. Second, why can't we compare the V6 vs. the V8? In this case, they are both track capable cars, and depending on options, they are similar in price. This is where the quote above that you didn't recognize comes from. Your post #295 ("No-one in their right mind would cross shop the V6 1lE and the GT. Different engine sizes, different classes. ") It seems like an arbitrary constraint you added to the conversation, to intentionally handicap the GM cars.

There very well may be some people out there that want to track their car, and performance is important to them, and they may have a price constraint that is in the range of the GTPP and V6 1LE. We can therefore compare them. The GTPP will have a V8 (which the buyer may like more, just because), and it will have a better trunk and outward visibility. The V6 1LE will probably be better at the track, you get the dual mode exhaust, and an optional performance data recorder, but will come with compromises we discussed above. It will come down to which is a higher priority, comfort or performance, and obviously preference (to brand or number or cylinders).

Here is some perspective. You are currently in a "6th gen Camaro 1LE" forum, posting under the "1LE faster than...." thread, telling us we can't compare the V6 1LE to what Ford has to offer with the Mustang in the same price range? Really? This is a dedicated section for the 1LE optioned cars, and some test results just came out on the two different cars that have the 1LE option available. I think it only natural to discuss how these two cars compare to other cars, especially what Ford has to offer due to obvious reasons.

I, myself, am very impressed with the 1LE option package on both cars. It is obvious that these cars are punching WAY above their weight class. If all you have to offer to the conversation is that you bought the Mustang because of trunk space and visibility, we have heard that before. You are not bringing anything new to the table. And it doesn't have much to do with the 1LE package. And most folks looking at what the 1LE package has to offer are not worried about their golf game. They are worried about lap times. And not coincidentally, here we are, in a 1LE forum, trying to talk about the track times the 1LE's just laid down, and you are talking ".... but the trunk space...." Do you see why I am confused? Help me understand your point.

There were several of you arguing that the supercharged ZL1 was the GT 350s competition, hence the class distinction.

In regards to the v6 vs v8 argument, there are several discussions on here asking about getting a Camaro v6 vs mustang v8 and an overwhelming majority of your brethren said they would choose the mustang hands down. The horsepower gap is so significant, it's not even close. New tires on a vehicle are cheap in the grand scheme of things as is suspension. Overcoming a 100hp deficit is not.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

.." Do you see why I am confused? Help me understand your point.

He's just here stirring the pot. But he's doing it with good manners and it's amusing. I'm enjoying the conversation. It gets so dead here sometimes.

There MF I answered for you since you avoided the question

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by 67Builder

Exactly! That's why anyone with the low 40k budget that does want a track car will pick a 1LE. No nav, no extras. Just go fast in a factory warranty car.

While you may have gotten a good deal at 37K, i'm just going by the numbers on truecar on the average price paid for a GT Premium with PP and recaros as the closest comparison i can get with a 1LE package for package. Both go for low 40k (Stang just over 40K, Camaro just over 42K). At that price point, those are the two natural comparisons.
If you dropped someone off at a Ford and Chevy dealership with 40K and said go buy the best track car you can with that. That's what they'd be looking at.

Nobody with 40K is going to cross shop the 1LE and GT350. They can't. Until the dealers stop gouging and the prices for the 350 come down. It'll never be a good comparison to shop.
Now if someone with 60K wants to cross shop. They might consider the 1LE because it's apparently the better car. But that person with a 60k budget has the luxury of cross shopping the two, getting a better car and saving the money. Those people will be far fewer than the one with that 40K budget however.

Actually, given the budget of 40k, I'd get the focus with cup2s and recaros.

Except, most people looking purely for performance aren't going to opt into the premium interior.

People looking for a track ready car are a different breed. I've known many. Brand loyalty can be thrown out the door. Spending extra $$ on aftermarket parts are no problem. Those are the people looking at the 1le and gt350. If they are short on cash, the 1le is an easy buy. Even shorter? 1SS. Shorter yet? GTPP. That is the basis for my argument.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by Thor142

He's just here stirring the pot. But he's doing it with good manners and it's amusing. I'm enjoying the conversation. It gets so dead here sometimes.

There MF I answered for you since you avoided the question

This place was dead before I got here. Soooo much more lively now.

[67Builder]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Except, most people looking purely for performance aren't going to opt into the premium interior.

People looking for a track ready car are a different breed. I've known many. Brand loyalty can be thrown out the door. Spending extra $$ on aftermarket parts are no problem. Those are the people looking at the 1le and gt350. If they are short on cash, the 1le is an easy buy. Even shorter? 1SS. Shorter yet? GTPP. That is the basis for my argument.

There is NOBODY cross shopping a 60k gt350 and a 40k 1LE.
If you're short on cash, you're not shopping the 350 because you can't.

Again, if you have a 40k budget and want a v8 track car, you're looking at a Mustang or Camaro. And at that price point, the best GTPP or the 1LE are the only ones you would get. No matter if you want the premium interior on the premium Stang, you'll still be looking at the GTPP. Not the 350. Until the gouging stops that is.. When/if the 350 comes down in price to the level of the 1LE. then there will be some cross shoppers. Not before. The gt350 and the R are both competition to the z/28. The 70k price tag on the z makes it the natural cross shop point.
At some point you'll get that your max budget sets the level of cars you can look at for a track star.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by 67Builder

There is NOBODY cross shopping a 60k gt350 and a 40k 1LE.
If you're short on cash, you're not shopping the 350 because you can't.

Again, if you have a 40k budget and want a v8 track car, you're looking at a Mustang or Camaro. And at that price point, the best GTPP or the 1LE are the only ones you would get. No matter if you want the premium interior on the premium Stang, you'll still be looking at the GTPP. Not the 350. Until the gouging stops that is.. When/if the 350 comes down in price to the level of the 1LE. then there will be some cross shoppers. Not before. The gt350 and the R are both competition to the z/28. The 70k price tag on the z makes it the natural cross shop point.
At some point you'll get that your max budget sets the level of cars you can look at for a track star.

I don't think you're getting it. Anyone non biased enough to cross whole the two vehicles from a track perspective are going to look at the gt350, 1le, 1ss, GTPP and then GT in that order. It's in order from both a performance perspective and money. As soon as you throw subjectivity such as looks and ergo into the mix, things will obviously change.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Except, most people looking purely for performance aren't going to opt into the premium interior.

People looking for a track ready car are a different breed. I've known many. Brand loyalty can be thrown out the door. Spending extra $$ on aftermarket parts are no problem. Those are the people looking at the 1le and gt350. If they are short on cash, the 1le is an easy buy. Even shorter? 1SS. Shorter yet? GTPP. That is the basis for my argument.

I'm one of those guys. Product loyalty is earned by making a compelling product at a rational price. The badge on the front is fairly irrelevant, it's the car itself that makes or breaks the purchase. OEM's offerings swing wildly from model to model over the years.

I do think you're over-simplifying though. To that point, I'll also admit the GT350R is outside of my spend-zone, on top of, despite that I can recognize it as a great car, I just don't *want* to own one. The 1LE gives me The Fizz even from this side of the keyboard, and that's really all that matters.

Just because someone can't afford a GT350R doens't mean they'll automatically go to a 1LE. They might skip over to a Focus RS instead, or a BMW M235i.

I'm not even sure what the point here is. Let each individual determine the car they want to buy? To bring it back to the OT, is someone looking to buy an //M4 GTS even bothered some Camaro is anywhere near it in lap times? Probably not. They'll be stroking their chub having an //M4 GTS in their garage and not giving a crap about anyone or anything else. I guess this is why I've always seen car comparisons fairly moot; one camp is never going to convince the other that they're "right".

[Egon]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I am glad you clarified, but I still have some questions: Why did you bring up FI vs. N/A, as none of the cars we were talking about are FI, they are all N/A. Second, why can't we compare the V6 vs. the V8? In this case, they are both track capable cars, and depending on options, they are similar in price. This is where the quote above that you didn't recognize comes from. Your post #295 ("No-one in their right mind would cross shop the V6 1lE and the GT. Different engine sizes, different classes. ") It seems like an arbitrary constraint you added to the conversation, to intentionally handicap the GM cars.

There very well may be some people out there that want to track their car, and performance is important to them, and they may have a price constraint that is in the range of the GTPP and V6 1LE. We can therefore compare them. The GTPP will have a V8 (which the buyer may like more, just because), and it will have a better trunk and outward visibility. The V6 1LE will probably be better at the track, you get the dual mode exhaust, and an optional performance data recorder, but will come with compromises we discussed above. It will come down to which is a higher priority, comfort or performance, and obviously preference (to brand or number or cylinders).

Here is some perspective. You are currently in a "6th gen Camaro 1LE" forum, posting under the "1LE faster than...." thread, telling us we can't compare the V6 1LE to what Ford has to offer with the Mustang in the same price range? Really? This is a dedicated section for the 1LE optioned cars, and some test results just came out on the two different cars that have the 1LE option available. I think it only natural to discuss how these two cars compare to other cars, especially what Ford has to offer due to obvious reasons.

I, myself, am very impressed with the 1LE option package on both cars. It is obvious that these cars are punching WAY above their weight class. If all you have to offer to the conversation is that you bought the Mustang because of trunk space and visibility, we have heard that before. You are not bringing anything new to the table. And it doesn't have much to do with the 1LE package. And most folks looking at what the 1LE package has to offer are not worried about their golf game. They are worried about lap times. And not coincidentally, here we are, in a 1LE forum, trying to talk about the track times the 1LE's just laid down, and you are talking ".... but the trunk space...." Do you see why I am confused? Help me understand your point.

There is absolutely no reason why the V6 1LE and the V8 GTPP can't be compared since Ford themselves insist that they compare their Turbo I4 against Chevrolets V6 in this segment. If Ford can rewrite the traditional progression of 4cyl < V6 < V8 than Chevrolet can do the same with the V6 1LE, Ford just set the precedent. The differences between a Turbo I4 and a V6 is vastly larger than the diff between a V6 and a V8 afterall.

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

There were several of you arguing that the supercharged ZL1 was the GT 350s competition, hence the class distinction.

In regards to the v6 vs v8 argument, there are several discussions on here asking about getting a Camaro v6 vs mustang v8 and an overwhelming majority of your brethren said they would choose the mustang hands down. The horsepower gap is so significant, it's not even close. New tires on a vehicle are cheap in the grand scheme of things as is suspension. Overcoming a 100hp deficit is not.

I don't think the 100 hp deficit is as big as you make it out to be in a track setting. First off the GT350(non R) has 71 more hp and a similar weight to the SS 1LE and yet the SS 1LE is still faster. The V6 1LE is down 100 hp from the Mustang GTPP but it also weighs 270 lbs less. A weight savings of that amount is worth a LOT since you won't be throwing as much weight around when cornering. It's a significant advantage, and it is one of the reasons I think the V6 1LE may be devastating in SCCA F-Street class next year. That is assuming they leave it in FS and don't move it to a different class like they are likely to do with the SS 1LE into A-Street.

And before you say anything about tires consider that a Mustang Ecoboost came in 3rd this year in SCCA Nationals just behind a 2016 Camaro SS, and a 2015 Camaro 1LE all with Bridgestone RE-71r's. (I think they were even the same sizes on the 16 Camaro and the 2015 Ecoboost) The lower weight of the Ecoboost made it competitive despite being down 145hp to the winning Camaro. (it was 6 tenths behind the winning car over 2 days of competition)

TLDR: If Ford insists we have to compare their Turbo I4 with Chevys V6 model we can compare the V6 1LE to the Mustang GTPP. And 100 hp isn't as big of a handicap as it is made out to be considering significant weight savings in the V6 1LE.

[HyperBlue]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

..... is someone looking to buy an //M4 GTS even bothered some Camaro is anywhere near it in lap times? Probably not. They'll be stroking their chub having an //M4 GTS in their garage and not giving a crap about anyone or anything else. I guess this is why I've always seen car comparisons fairly moot; one camp is never going to convince the other that they're "right".

Hahahaha!
This is funny as hell and exactly right.