[RenegadeXR]

Originally Posted by fastball

Not originally. The Z28 in the first gen was a limited edition track ready car with an aluminum 302. It was in the late 70s when they decided to use that badge on the low end V8 Camaros as a marketing ploy

Yep, and as I alluded to in my other post, Camaro has been all over the place in terms of what badge designations mean. They have shifted dramatically over time. Pretty much the only consistency is in the "SS" badge meaning a premium "daily driver" V8 offering. The terms "z/28" and "ZL1" are pretty much dug up whenever they need a badge for a non-SS car, with no real consistency as to what it means -- a lower-priced trim, or an appearance package, or a performance package.

I vote to use the z/28 name too for a base v8.

[gpskinzhut]

The 67 & 68 Z's were low production. The 69's had well over 20k produced.

It would seem counter-intuitive to raise the bar of the Z28 to what they did with the Gen5 only to slap the badge on what would be an underperforming entry-level car in the case of a V8 LT. Because I'd bet it would speed limited with the 18" wheel/tire package that an LT comes with and the single piston calipers, same way the gen 5 non-RS V6's were speed limited. And it wouldn't be a stripper in the sense of a factory race car as that just increases costs and negates the entire point having an entry level V8.

As far as history goes, the 2nd gens, the Z was the top model after the SS was dropped in '73 and the early 2nd gen Z28's it was a legit performer with the LT1 from the Vette. Then the Z28 was dropped for a couple years between... what 75-77? After that, it was the top trim package again until the IROC in 85-90 and specifically the reintroduction of the L98 350 in '87 that was only available on IROC trimmed cars. Then it was top dog again from 91 through to 94 or 95 at which point the SS was reintroduced. Then we all know it's rebirth in '14 to '15 where it was at the top of the food chain and channeled its original origins. Whether the performance was there or not is irrelevant really. Nothing in the mid-late 70's performed but it was never an entry level trim.

The ZL1 has never been just slapped on whatever. And really it's only been on the 50 '69 COPO cars and the 5th-6th gens, from GM anyway. I'd say the LSA & LT4 ZL1s are a very legitimate bearer of the badge.

[AZCamaroFan]

correct gpskinzhut
and the 1st gen Z/28 was less 'track ready' than it was used to homologate parts for racing.

and the notion that the 4thgen SS 'was for guys with money' when it was only $3,500 over the Z28 is pretty funny

[IMadeYouReadThis]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

correct gpskinzhut
and the 1st gen Z/28 was less 'track ready' than it was used to homologate parts for racing.

and the notion that the 4thgen SS 'was for guys with money' when it was only $3,500 over the Z28 is pretty funny

I'm pretty sure it was a lot more than $3,500 over a Z28 stripper.

[VQ35DE]

Originally Posted by gpskinzhut

The 67 & 68 Z's were low production. The 69's had well over 20k produced.

It would seem counter-intuitive to raise the bar of the Z28 to what they did with the Gen5 only to slap the badge on what would be an underperforming entry-level car in the case of a V8 LT. Because I'd bet it would speed limited with the 18" wheel/tire package that an LT comes with and the single piston calipers, same way the gen 5 non-RS V6's were speed limited. And it wouldn't be a stripper in the sense of a factory race car as that just increases costs and negates the entire point having an entry level V8.

As far as history goes, the 2nd gens, the Z was the top model after the SS was dropped in '73 and the early 2nd gen Z28's it was a legit performer with the LT1 from the Vette. Then the Z28 was dropped for a couple years between... what 75-77? After that, it was the top trim package again until the IROC in 85-90 and specifically the reintroduction of the L98 350 in '87 that was only available on IROC trimmed cars. Then it was top dog again from 91 through to 94 or 95 at which point the SS was reintroduced. Then we all know it's rebirth in '14 to '15 where it was at the top of the food chain and channeled its original origins. Whether the performance was there or not is irrelevant really. Nothing in the mid-late 70's performed but it was never an entry level trim.

The ZL1 has never been just slapped on whatever. And really it's only been on the 50 '69 COPO cars and the 5th-6th gens, from GM anyway. I'd say the LSA & LT4 ZL1s are a very legitimate bearer of the badge.

There was a Z28 in 1977 for sure . I had one back then.

[gpskinzhut]

Originally Posted by VQ35DE

There was a Z28 in 1977 for sure . I had one back then.

It's somewhere in that window where it was dropped for a couple years, or maybe just '75. I'd have to go looking.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis

I'm pretty sure it was a lot more than $3,500 over a Z28 stripper.

Exactly...a 4th gen Z28 stripper was around 22k. A SLP SS was 30-32k.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by fastball

Again you are missing the point.

Do you know what logistics are? Ever hear of 6 Sigma? Operational efficiency?

It is actually more efficient, faster, cheaper, and results in higher quality, if every car is built exactly the same. Car companies would love to build every single car in one color, with ALL options, on every single car. That would probably decrease the sticker price $5k and increase the profits for the company by $15k at the same time.

In the old days, when you could pick and chose every single feature in your build, that meant that GM would have to keep an inventory of every feature yet not use every part. That means wasted space for stock, wasted money for buying the parts from the vendor, and wasted time in delivery and organizing them. Plus it resulted in cars being configurable in hundreds of thousands of possible configurations. It contributed to the bad quality that crept in over the 70s.

Sure you could order your bare bones Camaro with the biggest motor, high performance suspension and brakes, without A/C or a radio. Heck you could order it without a heater too.

The next guy wants A/C and a heater. But he doesn't want a radio.

The next guy wants a radio with no A/C.

By the late 80s you could get your Camaro with power locks, manual crank windows, tilt wheel but without cruise or delay wipers, without A/C but with T-tops. Or with cruise, without power door locks, with power windows, without tilt wheel, no T-Tops and with air conditioning.

For each and every one of those configurations, there's THOUSANDS of different parts that are required.

Add to the fact that today cars are entirely integrated through the ECM and BCM it makes it impossible to separate power windows and locks from the climate control, power seats, and sound system.

Japan started the streamline operational efficiency by offering limited options and cars basically built in trim levels only. Then they built them in groups. So you didn't have different parts going into each different car as they rolled down the line. That's a necessity if a car company wants to stay profitable and you want your car affordable and high quality.

Amen. So many people don't understand this.

If GM wants to offer a stripped bare bones Camaro with a V8 and it actually be cheaper, that needs to be planned out and agreed to well before the launch of a new generation. Can't shoehorn that in now. The problem is there is no such thing these days as a "stripped" car. Everything comes with an infotainment screen and backup camera, power windows/locks.

There is very little that Chevy can pull out of the current 1SS to make it significantly cheaper.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis

I'm all for it being called a Z28. In fact the Z28 was the lower cost model. And you could get a stripper in the 4th gen. The SS was for the guys with money

Yeah, let’s not drag the Z28 through the mud again. Just because someone thought it was a good idea to slap the badge on a budget car, doesn’t mean it was.

[RenegadeXR]

gpskinzhut, that was a great break down of the history of the different Camaro trims. I just realized I've been convoluting my history of the Z badges with the 1LE. In any case, my head hurts. They can just call this supposed new v8 the "Camaro We Need to Boost Sales so We Removed Some Stuff from the SS" edition if no existing trim identifiers can be re-used.

[gpskinzhut]

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

gpskinzhut, that was a great break down of the history of the different Camaro trims. I just realized I've been convoluting my history of the Z badges with the 1LE. In any case, my head hurts. They can just call this supposed new v8 the "Camaro We Need to Boost Sales so We Removed Some Stuff from the SS" edition if no existing trim identifiers can be re-used.

Oh we're not finished yet... 1LE's were introduced in '88. To further confuse things, every gen3/gen4 B4C Police Package also is equipped with the 1LE RPO and subsequent option set.

I'd just call it an LT with an engine option; 3LT or some shit like that.

[AZCamaroFan]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Exactly...a 4th gen Z28 stripper was around 22k. A SLP SS was 30-32k.

From Car and Driver 1996

SLP Z28SS Price as Tested $28,770

i do have to shake my head continually at the forum these days. so many of us that use to post don't much anymore. The notion of calling the LT1 or LS1 Z28 a 'budget car' when it was in fact faster than the 67-69 or the big blocks of that era, let alone ride and handling

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by gpskinzhut

Oh we're not finished yet... 1LE's were introduced in '88. To further confuse things, every gen3/gen4 B4C Police Package also is equipped with the 1LE RPO and subsequent option set.

I'd just call it an LT with an engine option; 3LT or some shit like that.

Call it Berlinetta , maybe its time to bring it back. Stick a sweet 305 HP V8 in it and will sell like hot cakes.

[rburke76]

buy a LT 4cyl Turbo for 28,000$ that has no spoiler or sunroof or stripes, slap in a V8 (300-400hp range) and there you go...