Homepage Garage Wiki Register Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
#Camaro6
Go Back   CAMARO6 > Members Area > Ask the Camaro Team


Bigwormgraphix


Post Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-25-2018, 07:57 PM   #29
Chutzpah

 
Chutzpah's Avatar
 
Drives: Wild Cherry LT1
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,384
As far as I'm concerned, this is a very broad and totally expected answer from the GM team lawyers. Tell us what we already know... there's a TSB to flush the fluid to a different type / brand.

The Camaro team inherited the A8, so in this case, I can cut them some slack (at least on this issue, they own the groan and the NPP rattle).

Doesn't mean I'm happy with the TC answer that's been provided, because it basically means nothing.

"Our initial finding" - We provided fluid that was not compatible with just some cars..... some will work and others will not. Gee, thanks GM.

Wouldn't be so vocal if I didn't have a low mileage A8 w/ a June 16 build.


Chutzpah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 01:07 AM   #30
ninetres

 
ninetres's Avatar
 
Drives: Crush ZLE M6 | 2000 Corvette FRC
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Cencal
Posts: 1,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chutzpah View Post
As far as I'm concerned, this is a very broad and totally expected answer from the GM team lawyers. Tell us what we already know... there's a TSB to flush the fluid to a different type / brand.

The Camaro team inherited the A8, so in this case, I can cut them some slack (at least on this issue, they own the groan and the NPP rattle).

Doesn't mean I'm happy with the TC answer that's been provided, because it basically means nothing.

"Our initial finding" - We provided fluid that was not compatible with just some cars..... some will work and others will not. Gee, thanks GM.

Wouldn't be so vocal if I didn't have a low mileage A8 w/ a June 16 build.

Theoretically, if your car has issues, now you know the specific 2 repairs to be performed.....as-per the Camaro engineering team. I’m not sure what you’re still upset about. Get a new TC and fresh updated fluid. I can understand some dissatisfaction from a newer car having a problem.....but here is a free fix being offered.
ninetres is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 08:39 AM   #31
90503


 
90503's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS LS3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Torrance
Posts: 13,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chutzpah View Post
As far as I'm concerned, this is a very broad and totally expected answer from the GM team lawyers. Tell us what we already know... there's a TSB to flush the fluid to a different type / brand.

The Camaro team inherited the A8, so in this case, I can cut them some slack (at least on this issue, they own the groan and the NPP rattle).

Doesn't mean I'm happy with the TC answer that's been provided, because it basically means nothing.

"Our initial finding" - We provided fluid that was not compatible with just some cars..... some will work and others will not. Gee, thanks GM.

Wouldn't be so vocal if I didn't have a low mileage A8 w/ a June 16 build.

Yeah, it's not very reassuring that you will be trouble free. How much will the trans repair with a new TC, upgraded fluid, parts and labor, etc., cost someone like yourself once the warranty is up and you have to foot the bill?

Al recommends having the warranty work done asap (if you have symptoms)...if you wait, you may need to go back for a TC if the first round doesn't solve the problem....That's twice you need to go through the three ring circus with a dealer who may not even acknowledge you have a problem if they can't duplicate it after you leave your car with them...not just once, but probably twice....and hopefully you will have symptoms before the warranty is up.

It's a hazy drawn out process of if and when the shudder may occur during your warrantied time of ownership, especially for someone like yourself with very low miles....

They should recall all A8s built before their cut-off date and R/R the complete transmission, with or without any shudder symptoms.....

Good luck.
90503 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 08:42 AM   #32
Chutzpah

 
Chutzpah's Avatar
 
Drives: Wild Cherry LT1
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninetres View Post
Theoretically, if your car has issues, now you know the specific 2 repairs to be performed.....as-per the Camaro engineering team. I’m not sure what you’re still upset about. Get a new TC and fresh updated fluid. I can understand some dissatisfaction from a newer car having a problem.....but here is a free fix being offered.

Maybe if I was in your shoes, I'd feel the same way. A10 ... nice.

Everyone on this site (that cares to look) was well informed of the A8 TSB's. So for me, it's not " now you know".

And I'm not upset, I'm disappointed. GM's telling us is that the fluid didn't meet correct slip requirements to protect the torque converters between x date and x date. However, you may or may not have issues. Just keep driving, wait and see, cross you fingers, you may or may not have a warrantee when it occurs (especially if you drive between 3-5K miles a year, like me)

GM - We've corrected the issue for dates after your car was built... so instead of being proactive, contacting customers and either changing the suspect fluid, or at a minimum visually inspecting it, at some reasonable mileage interval (which would take all of 10 minutes on lift) You have to drop your car off at the dealer (when shudder occurs), at a time that may be least convenient for you (in my case summer time). The tech will drive your car for who knows how many miles, at what speed and RPM, may feel the shudder and may or may not flush the system. If they do, the problem may or may not be resolved. So to avoid the hassle and to be proactive, should I instead pay to have the system flushed? I think not. Honestly, I wish they didn't answer the question....

If the fluid was the precipitating factor in TC failures, millions of cars, trucks and SUV's would have been sidelined. This is why I believe the words "initial finding" was inserted in reference to the fluid swap. The new fluid and flush certainly helps the resolve the issue, especially for those that have it done early on. But, it seems clear that it's was not the root cause.

Last edited by Chutzpah; 04-26-2018 at 10:50 AM.
Chutzpah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 08:59 AM   #33
hotlap


 
hotlap's Avatar
 
Drives: 20 1LE 2SS M6 Rally Green
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Franklin WI
Posts: 6,631
My shudder occurred at 10k miles and was first noticed when driving home from the drag strip (coincided?). It was subtle so I ignored it until it became strong and consistent at ~12k miles.

The dealer had to follow the procedure of triple flush, drive 200 miles and then TC replace even though they knew the TC was toast. It was a major pain in the ass but I'm hopeful that I have a long term fix because it was done six months after the production fix.

With three more years warranty and annual mileage of ~9k it will occur again under warranty if it isn't really fixed. If that happens, I'll be pissed. Until then, I'll believe Al because the 18 Camaros don't appear to have the problem.
__________________

"the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.”
Ronald Reagan -
hotlap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 09:02 AM   #34
Chutzpah

 
Chutzpah's Avatar
 
Drives: Wild Cherry LT1
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90503 View Post
Yeah, it's not very reassuring that you will be trouble free. How much will the trans repair with a new TC, upgraded fluid, parts and labor, etc., cost someone like yourself once the warranty is up and you have to foot the bill?

Al recommends having the warranty work done asap (if you have symptoms)...if you wait, you may need to go back for a TC if the first round doesn't solve the problem....That's twice you need to go through the three ring circus with a dealer who may not even acknowledge you have a problem if they can't duplicate it after you leave your car with them...not just once, but probably twice....and hopefully you will have symptoms before the warranty is up.

It's a hazy drawn out process of if and when the shudder may occur during your warrantied time of ownership, especially for someone like yourself with very low miles....

They should recall all A8s built before their cut-off date and R/R the complete transmission, with or without any shudder symptoms.....

Good luck.
You're speaking my language, thank you.
Chutzpah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 09:10 AM   #35
90503


 
90503's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS LS3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Torrance
Posts: 13,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotlap View Post
My shudder occurred at 10k miles and was first noticed when driving home from the drag strip (coincided?). It was subtle so I ignored it until it became strong and consistent at ~12k miles.

The dealer had to follow the procedure of triple flush, drive 200 miles and then TC replace even though they knew the TC was toast. It was a major pain in the ass but I'm hopeful that I have a long term fix because it was done six months after the production fix.

With three more years warranty and annual mileage of ~9k it will occur again under warranty if it isn't really fixed. If that happens, I'll be pissed. Until then, I'll believe Al because the 18 Camaros don't appear to have the problem.
Just curious....

The triple flush was done, then the TC replaced, but still the non-upgraded trans fluid was still used?....If the problem was the original formula of the trans fluid being defective and insufficient for use, all that you had done would theoretically been a waste of time if you are still running the non-upgraded fluid....

I'm just wondering how they can say the first batch of fluid was the problem, but yet it would be ok to re-use it after a TC replacement....Sort of defeats the purpose, wouldn't it?...

The upgraded fluid was only around with the "single flush remedy", and the so-called solution to the first triple flush, same fluid, approach...

And I find it hard to comprehend that if the fluid were the problem, it's still possible that not every trans would be affected...."You might be ok", etc., isn't very reassuring or much of a reliable answer....
90503 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 09:22 AM   #36
cooper1965
Coopers Camaro
 
cooper1965's Avatar
 
Drives: 18 Flex Fuel LTG
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: St. Louis/Sullivan/Washington MO
Posts: 933
Wow, some of you guys are really taking Al's cleverly designed response as total gospel. Im not sure if its a lack of understanding, or just plain refusal to accept the truth. So many questions UN-answered.
If there was a build date cut-off, why doesn't GM recognize it? Why weren't dealers ever informed of this information? Why does the TSB specifically list current 18's including the Camaro? Why are dealers still performing the "FIX" on 18's? If fluid was the root cause, how come there are so many examples of shudder returning? The torque converter you say? Ok, how about the guys who got the flush and a torque converter only to have shudder return again? How about the countless examples of tuner's eliminating shudder permanently? How about the fact that nothing changed fluid wise or internally in the transmissions for 2018, yet Global warranty claims are down dramatically? Ect..Ect..
You guys can believe what you want, but the proof is there. I will circle a few critical areas on my previously posted document, since there still seems to be some confusion on that subject... Once again "EOP"= End of Production.
Attached Images
  
__________________
Flex Fuel tuned by me using HPT-:-


---My Build Thread---
-----My IG PAGe-----
cooper1965 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 09:55 AM   #37
SuperSound


 
SuperSound's Avatar
 
Drives: '17 Camaro 2SS A8
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 5,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooper1965 View Post
Wow, some of you guys are really taking Al's cleverly designed response as total gospel. Im not sure if its a lack of understanding, or just plain refusal to accept the truth. So many questions UN-answered.
If there was a build date cut-off, why doesn't GM recognize it? Why weren't dealers ever informed of this information? Why does the TSB specifically list current 18's including the Camaro? Why are dealers still performing the "FIX" on 18's? If fluid was the root cause, how come there are so many examples of shudder returning? The torque converter you say? Ok, how about the guys who got the flush and a torque converter only to have shudder return again? How about the countless examples of tuner's eliminating shudder permanently? How about the fact that nothing changed fluid wise or internally in the transmissions for 2018, yet Global warranty claims are down dramatically? Ect..Ect..
You guys can believe what you want, but the proof is there. I will circle a few critical areas on my previously posted document, since there still seems to be some confusion on that subject... Once again "EOP"= End of Production.
And where is your proof that a MY18 car has had the issue? Here's an entire thread of MY18s with no reports. We are going into MY19 now, so there's definitely been enough time for a MY18 car to get the issue.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525175

I'm not arguing the TSB has 18 listed since that's probably someone in legal trying to CYA.

As for the TCM slip removal, again why is that surprising to you? The slip additive was ineffective, and removing the slip values stops the TC from slipping. Makes perfect sense to me, but it's not the root cause because A) not every A8 has the issue. B) these procedures would not fix any car (i.e. like mine which has now been more miles on the new TC than the original when the issue first started occurring).

You can argue about the usefulness and reasons behind the slip values, which I love to hear more about.
__________________
Current: '17 2SS Hyper Blue, A8, MRC, NPP
Past: '99 SS Camaro A4, '73 Camaro 383 A3

"Voices in your head are not considered insider information."

3800 Status - 6/16/16 (Built!)
6000 status - 6/29/16 (Delivered!)
SuperSound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 10:01 AM   #38
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2018 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 31,876
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooper1965 View Post
Wow, some of you guys are really taking Al's cleverly designed response as total gospel. Im not sure if its a lack of understanding, or just plain refusal to accept the truth. So many questions UN-answered.
If there was a build date cut-off, why doesn't GM recognize it? Why weren't dealers ever informed of this information? Why does the TSB specifically list current 18's including the Camaro? Why are dealers still performing the "FIX" on 18's? If fluid was the root cause, how come there are so many examples of shudder returning? The torque converter you say? Ok, how about the guys who got the flush and a torque converter only to have shudder return again? How about the countless examples of tuner's eliminating shudder permanently? How about the fact that nothing changed fluid wise or internally in the transmissions for 2018, yet Global warranty claims are down dramatically? Ect..Ect..
You guys can believe what you want, but the proof is there. I will circle a few critical areas on my previously posted document, since there still seems to be some confusion on that subject... Once again "EOP"= End of Production.
There seems to be a discrepancy between the documentation you, as dealers, are given...and what the Engineering Team has communicated here. That is not the focus of this discussion...perhaps you should call the district manager?

But above all, we don't need to accuse anyone of denying "the truth", or being stupid. Let's not get this thread bogged down by ego...thanks.
__________________
"Keep the faith." - Fbodfather
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 10:21 AM   #39
Evil-Bee-NH
603 Camaros
 
Evil-Bee-NH's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 NGM I4 1LT Coupe
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 6,781
He's not bashing anyone with ego and this coming from me, given my history with cooper should say enough. We have proof it's the TCM slip% settings actually causing the issue i went over what causes the shudder... i explained what the 3 flush was actually intended to do because we all agree several instances had been reported that the issue came back after so there's my supporting evidence. They even went out on a limb in legal and said some fluid didn't meet slip protection requirements... So if the slip settings are causing low line pressure with said inadequete fluid what is this new fluid is it thicker or thinner is it made to stay in the lines at a higher pressure longer? I'm not a mechanic or chemist and i generally go overboard defending decisions that make sense and i am not directing anything at all towards Al as i said before this was a GM legal response he doesn't have a choice and he's one hell of a guy. I firsthand know the legal binding GM employees who go out have. I asked the engineers walking around the parking lot party last camarofest about why they didn't feel a catch can was needed and they literally said they couldn't answer that question.

So again why not research read between the lines and actually discover what the real root issue is everyone? Instead of slamming Al's response because he is an awesome guy who goes way above and beyond to support us. I can guarantee he cringed when that was the question this forum came up with this time around.

I've said my piece I've tried to help.... some can't be helped...
__________________

MY 2017 I4 CAMARO BUILD JOURNAL | YOUTUBE | INSTAGRAM | 316RWHP - 385 RWTQ HPTUNERS DYNO TUNE | 12.693s @ 105MPH 1/4 Mile

Last edited by Evil-Bee-NH; 04-26-2018 at 10:47 AM.
Evil-Bee-NH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 10:21 AM   #40
qcman

 
qcman's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Camaro 2SS RDP Tuned L99
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ottawa, Canada eh?
Posts: 1,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90503 View Post

And I find it hard to comprehend that if the fluid were the problem, it's still possible that not every trans would be affected...."You might be ok", etc., isn't very reassuring or much of a reliable answer....
I find this odd too. Does this mean some cars had fluid that was okay while some did not? Assuming all cars were delivered with the same poor quality fluid why not replace all of the fluid in cars from that period?

To me it has to be more than just fluid with perhaps some variability in the quality of the TC's. Hard to say though....
qcman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 10:22 AM   #41
cooper1965
Coopers Camaro
 
cooper1965's Avatar
 
Drives: 18 Flex Fuel LTG
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: St. Louis/Sullivan/Washington MO
Posts: 933
Ok, I get it. I will bow out now, as clearly I'm being miss-taken.

And just for the record, I did not call anyone stupid.
__________________
Flex Fuel tuned by me using HPT-:-


---My Build Thread---
-----My IG PAGe-----

Last edited by cooper1965; 04-26-2018 at 10:35 AM. Reason: The record.
cooper1965 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 10:25 AM   #42
hotlap


 
hotlap's Avatar
 
Drives: 20 1LE 2SS M6 Rally Green
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Franklin WI
Posts: 6,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90503 View Post
Just curious....

The triple flush was done, then the TC replaced, but still the non-upgraded trans fluid was still used?....If the problem was the original formula of the trans fluid being defective and insufficient for use, all that you had done would theoretically been a waste of time if you are still running the non-upgraded fluid....

I'm just wondering how they can say the first batch of fluid was the problem, but yet it would be ok to re-use it after a TC replacement....Sort of defeats the purpose, wouldn't it?...

The upgraded fluid was only around with the "single flush remedy", and the so-called solution to the first triple flush, same fluid, approach...

And I find it hard to comprehend that if the fluid were the problem, it's still possible that not every trans would be affected...."You might be ok", etc., isn't very reassuring or much of a reliable answer....
Why would they have used the non-upgraded fluid if the triple flush and TC replacement was done on my car six months after Chevy changed production? The dealer needed approval from Chevy for each step.

My understanding from Al's statement is they identified the problem as the fluid. Triple flush is to remove the old fluid from the system. If the TC was burnished due to the original fluid, the TC needs to be replace because the new friction modifier alone won't fix it
__________________

"the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.”
Ronald Reagan -
hotlap is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Post Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.