[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

This has been done. A number of times. even on the 5th gen lfx ... This topic only gets brought up because there exists a population of people who need to justify being stingy.

These engines have a high octane map and a low octane map. They will try and advance timing if possible. This affects more than just peak numbers, it impacts the entire operating range of the engine and especially sudden acceleration and engines under low rpm load (going uphill, etc). There's no black magic or mystery to be solved here.
The only variable is if the owner really considers 25 to 40 cents a gallon a deal breaker.

For something that's going to make a negligible difference (literally not even 2 HP and not even noticable while driving around on the street / highway), will not even increase the life span or efficiency of the motor by any measurable mean, why spend more? It's not being stingy.. it's literally no different than throwing snake oil in the car just to make you feel more comfortable. It was designed for 87. A higher octane map exists in most modern cars...most modern cars will see a benefit from using premium... but if I'm going to buy premium, I want a crapton more horsepower than 2 additional ponies. I would use that money and save up for something that's really going to perform and not a V6. No offense or anything...its just a waste of money for that platform. It's a quick car and a great performer but if I felt the need to squeeze every pony out of it....I need a faster car to begin with. That's just how I feel about that.

My 3.6L V6 did great for it's intended purpose. It was nearly as quick as my LS1, it burned half as much fuel as my LS1, full tank lasted virtually forever in that car, and it was very fun to drive around town. I never had a need to put more than 87 in it. Think about it. Paying $50 per fillup vs $35 per fillup and getting literally the EXACT same performance on the street without noticing a single difference whatsoever. What do you think I'm going to do? I dont go by mental tricks and peace of mind, I go by what works...and 87 worked perfectly with 0 problems ontop of performing nearly as well as an LS1. Why am I going to spend more when I dont need to?

If it came to be where i started feeling i needed more and more power out of it... I'd either put a blower on it, or upgrade to an SS ...so I could actually make real USE of premium fuel...and given that I upgraded to an SS and now regularly use premium you can see where that decision lead. You can put premium in a V6 if you want it does me no disfavor but i just say it's a waste of money unless its modded. I'd go toward building it or upgrading to a higher performance car if it was really that important to you.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

..

You obviously dont get it.

The point is not asking what subjective amount of hp is meaningful to you. it's not getting your opinion about anything. It's simply about facts.

Does there exist multiple fuel map tables in the ecu that is determined by the fuel you put in the car? Yes.

Does there exist a change in timing that occurs based on these tables? Yes

Does there exist real world examples where timing impacts performance? Yes

Is there an advantage to advanced timing vs retarded timing? Yes

So does premium fuel offer an advantage over regular octane? Yes

It's up to the end user to decide if that advantage matters. The variables that make up that decision vary too wildly person to person to care about discussing and are completely subjective.

You can oppose the decision to think it matters, but you can't make that statement without prefacing that it can potentially be better in any instance where aggressive timing is beneficial.
(edit: and there's no need to exaggerate the costs to make your point. The most you can really fill the tank is about 17 gallons, so at most you'll get about an 8 dollar difference in price between premium and 87 if the difference was about 50 cents. In more expensive areas, that difference is much less.. a 15 dollar difference is closer to a dollar a gallon difference which is not realistic. )

[Jeb114]

If your car does not require premium gas, there are no added benefits to your car’s performance or longevity. Simply put, you’re paying good money for something you don’t need. Premium costs 15-30 cents more a gallon than regular. In a consumer notice, the Federal Trade Commission, notes: “In most cases, using a higher-octane gasoline than your owner’s manual recommends offers absolutely no benefit. It won’t make your car perform better, go faster, get better mileage or run cleaner.” Enough said.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by Jeb114

If your car does not require premium gas, there are no added benefits to your car’s performance or longevity. Simply put, you’re paying good money for something you don’t need. Premium costs 15-30 cents more a gallon than regular. In a consumer notice, the Federal Trade Commission, notes: “In most cases, using a higher-octane gasoline than your owner’s manual recommends offers absolutely no benefit. It won’t make your car perform better, go faster, get better mileage or run cleaner.” Enough said.

the "In most cases" refers to cars that do not have separate timing tables. These generalized statements exist because performance cars are a niche market compared to the masses of camry's and corolla's out on the road.

So the above statement does not apply. Our cars do have separate tables. Enough said.

[whiteboyblues2001]

I found on the Camaro5.com website where this was discussed before (I remember because I had the V6 Gen5 Camaro). Here are the results of someone who did a test to see how much timing was pulled:

"Using a DashHawk to log Knock Retard I see a lot more KR using 87 Octane especially at part throttle in a steady pull. On throttle tip-in as much as 18 degrees KR has been logged. WOT gets as much as 6 degrees KR.

With 93 Octane there is generally less KR, little or none at WOT.
However there remains as much as 7 degrees KR at tip-in. A steady pull usually shows no KR.

These engines have 11.5 to 1 Compression Ratio.
Thirty years ago this much compression would have asked for Race Gas, and now with the aid of engine management computers, Knock Sensors and other devices we see High Compression engines survive on 87!
Of course combustion chamber designs that are more detonation resistant have helped here as well.

For me Knock Retard has a noticeable effect on the engines performance, especially throttle transitions. It just feels more sluggish on throttle response with 87.
I run 93 exclusively.
87 was only used for obtaining the data mentioned above."

That is a LOT of timing being pulled on 87 octane!

I definately noticed better MPG's and a bit better but dyno and throttle response with higher octane in my 2011 V6 Camaro.

But, the Gen6 Camaro has a newer version of the 3.6L V6. Someone should perform the same test and datalog the timing with both types of gas. Just remember to unplug the battery for a few minutes after swithing fuel. It often takes quite a while before the ECU switches over to the other fuel mapping table. Sometimes even 2 or 3 tanks of gas. But if you unplug the battery for a few minutes it will forget the history and try to figure out the fuel right away.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

You obviously dont get it.

No, you are just dead set on what you want to hear.

I'm not the one throwing more money at a car for a difference the car is pretty much going scoff at unless you're competing at a track, modded, tuned, or F.I. involved... on a STOCK motor you intend to drive around town, its a waste of money.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

The point is not asking what subjective amount of hp is meaningful to you. it's not getting your opinion about anything. It's simply about facts.

Does there exist multiple fuel map tables in the ecu that is determined by the fuel you put in the car? Yes.

Does there exist a change in timing that occurs based on these tables? Yes

Does there exist real world examples where timing impacts performance? Yes

Is there an advantage to advanced timing vs retarded timing? Yes

So does premium fuel offer an advantage over regular octane? Yes

That doesn't change the fact that...

Does the aforementioned make a meaningful enough difference in drivability to switch to premium on a motor designed for 87? No.

Sure there's apparently going to be benefits, but enough to offset the cost if you're plainly driving it in day to day traffic? No.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

It's up to the end user to decide if that advantage matters. The variables that make up that decision vary too wildly person to person to care about discussing and are completely subjective.

But you wanted to go by facts earlier... so why are we steering back to opinions at this point? The FACT is... it IS a waste of money regardless of how you argue it. You can do it if you want...BUT that doesn't change the fact that its pretty pointless. It will do next to nothing on the street on a stock or near stock 3.6 ... Will it change performance aspects of the vehicle? Yes, but will it do so by enough to justify it? No.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

You can oppose the decision to think it matters, but you can't make that statement without prefacing that it can potentially be better in any instance where aggressive timing is beneficial.
(edit: and there's no need to exaggerate the costs to make your point. The most you can really fill the tank is about 17 gallons, so at most you'll get about an 8 dollar difference in price between premium and 87 if the difference was about 50 cents. In more expensive areas, that difference is much less.. a 15 dollar difference is closer to a dollar a gallon difference which is not realistic. )

I'm not exaggerating anything:
Regular - $2.30
Premium - $2.87
Thats a $0.57 difference.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sh...!4d-97.8144765

Regular - $2.30
Premium - $3.10
Thats a $0.80 difference.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sh...!4d-97.7865386

Regular - $2.26
Premium - $2.70
Thats a $0.44 difference.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sh...!4d-97.7306414

You all have this concept that died by year 2005 that Premium is only supposed to cost $0.30 more than regular and for most of the country, that is no longer the case.

If Im going to get 335 HP using 87... and maybe 337 HP using 93 -- get MAYBE at the most 1.5 MPG less, and save 10 bucks... What do you think I'm going to do? If the car CALLED for 93... then thats a different story, but I did not buy my 3.6 to flog down the highway, it did a great job as a fun sporty commuter car. If I were to be getting serious about modding it, then that is also a different story...but if it doesnt NEED 93... I'm not going to bury money in it when I am getting VERY similar performance results with 87.

[karmatourer]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

No, you are just dead set on what you want to hear.

I'm not the one throwing more money at a car for a difference the car is pretty much going scoff at unless you're competing at a track, modded, tuned, or F.I. involved... on a STOCK motor you intend to drive around town, its a waste of money.



That doesn't change the fact that...

Does the aforementioned make a meaningful enough difference in drivability to switch to premium on a motor designed for 87? No.

Sure there's apparently going to be benefits, but enough to offset the cost if you're plainly driving it in day to day traffic? No.



But you wanted to go by facts earlier... so why are we steering back to opinions at this point? The FACT is... it IS a waste of money regardless of how you argue it. You can do it if you want...BUT that doesn't change the fact that its pretty pointless. It will do next to nothing on the street on a stock or near stock 3.6 ... Will it change performance aspects of the vehicle? Yes, but will it do so by enough to justify it? No.



I'm not exaggerating anything:
Regular - $2.30
Premium - $2.87
Thats a $0.57 difference.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sh...!4d-97.8144765

Regular - $2.30
Premium - $3.10
Thats a $0.80 difference.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sh...!4d-97.7865386

Regular - $2.26
Premium - $2.70
Thats a $0.44 difference.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sh...!4d-97.7306414

You all have this concept that died by year 2005 that Premium is only supposed to cost $0.30 more than regular and for most of the country, that is no longer the case.

If Im going to get 335 HP using 87... and maybe 337 HP using 93 -- get MAYBE at the most 1.5 MPG less, and save 10 bucks... What do you think I'm going to do? If the car CALLED for 93... then thats a different story, but I did not buy my 3.6 to flog down the highway, it did a great job as a fun sporty commuter car. If I were to be getting serious about modding it, then that is also a different story...but if it doesnt NEED 93... I'm not going to bury money in it when I am getting VERY similar performance results with 87.

Going further back than most here want to admit or remember,each step in octane was .10 here in Florida. Premium was only .20 more than regular. I also remember regular was .24 99/100 when I was a kid getting a gallon of gas for the mower and my Dad gave me a quarter.
I'm not wasting ANY money or premium unless I get a wild hair and top off with a few gallons of hi-test, Rare occasion.

[Raptor Jesus]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

on a STOCK motor you intend to drive around town, its a waste of money.

I love when people try and tell others what to do with their money... If people want to put in 93, it's THEIR money. Typing the keys harder making huge posts to try and make people have your same thoughts is pointless. I feel 93 does make a difference and keeps my car running the highest amount of timing possible. Even if it's 5-7 hp at most I feel it's worth it to me and will always continue to do so.

[JT58]

Wow a lot of opinions here, which is fine. It comes down to reading the owners manual. Assuming you are stock and no high performance tune- If the manual says "regular grade 87" you are good to run regular- there will be not benefit if you use premium. If it says Premium "recommended" then you can still run regular although the timing will retard slightly and reduce power. If the manual says premium "required" and it will usually state the octane minimum- 91 or 93 you need to run that as a minimum or you may experience detonation.

So when I had my 2017 Camaro V6 I ran regular 87.

In my 2017 Fiesta ST it does say in the manual that premium is "recommended" for full performance. I initially ran 89 octane in it and it ran like crap- no detonation but it was like running reduced power. I noticed a significant difference when I switched to 93- and I stayed with 93 ever since.

If you install a tune, go with the stated octane- usually 91 or 93, or E85 or a mix of E85 and 93.

[17rsvert]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

You obviously dont get it.

The point is not asking what subjective amount of hp is meaningful to you. it's not getting your opinion about anything. It's simply about facts.

Does there exist multiple fuel map tables in the ecu that is determined by the fuel you put in the car? Yes.

Does there exist a change in timing that occurs based on these tables? Yes

Does there exist real world examples where timing impacts performance? Yes

Is there an advantage to advanced timing vs retarded timing? Yes

So does premium fuel offer an advantage over regular octane? Yes

OK, let's look at your facts.

There are multiple fuel map tables in the ecu based on fuel, and there is a change in timing based on those maps. So what? Yes, a high octane tuned engine will sacrifice performance running lower octane fuel because lower octane will PRE ignite. but the LGX is designed to run with 87 meaning 87 will NOT pre ignite. It is designed to ignite at the optimum time with 87. If there is a change in timing based on fuel map tables, how much does the timing change for higher octane? Is it enough to make any difference? You say yes, there exists real world examples where timing impacts performance. OK, for WHAT engines? Where is this specific evidence for the LGX engine? You say there is an advantage to advanced vs retarded timing, I agree for a high octane tuned engine running lower octane for example, but again, where is the evidence that this applies to the LGX to any real difference? You say there premium fuel offers an advantage over regular, again I agree for certain engines, but what about the LGX specifically?

Yes your facts hold true in certain cases, but until someone presents some real quantifiable test data for the LGX your facts don't apply. I'm not saying you're wrong, your facts just don't prove you're right.

[DangerZL1]

I’d run a couple tanks of premium and a couple tanks of regular and see which one gets better fuel economy. You cost the fuel economy increase vs the additional gas mileage On the other hand, premium is about .45 higher per gallon in my area now. I doubt the fuel economy or perceived performance increase would justify the 20%+ additional cost. Maybe I’m cheap, but I wouldn’t run a higher octane than what’s required in the owners manual.

[Raptor Jesus]

Originally Posted by DangerZL1

I’d run a couple tanks of premium and a couple tanks of regular and see which one gets better fuel economy. You cost the fuel economy increase vs the additional gas mileage On the other hand, premium is about .45 higher per gallon in my area now. I doubt the fuel economy or perceived performance increase would justify the 20%+ additional cost. Maybe I’m cheap, but I wouldn’t run a higher octane than what’s required in the owners manual.

The car will not switch from the different map tables that quick. And the question is not fuel economy, it's the performance gain. Fuel economy differences will be little to none between the two.

And again, if you don't think the few extra horsepower possibly available with 93 is worth it then don't buy it. Nobody here is making you. Some of us don't mind spending a little extra for extra octane and additives. The same as there is different brands of food at the store. To some people paying extra is worth it, some buy generic everything.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by Raptor Jesus

The car will not switch from the different map tables that quick. And the question is not fuel economy, it's the performance gain. Fuel economy differences will be little to none between the two.

And again, if you don't think the few extra horsepower possibly available with 93 is worth it then don't buy it. Nobody here is making you. Some of us don't mind spending a little extra for extra octane and additives. The same as there is different brands of food at the store. To some people paying extra is worth it, some buy generic everything.

Yeah but I dont understand why.

You wont feel it unless you literally floor it at every stop light. I totally get it if you're going to the track and / or you have a tune or are forced induction all of which you will need premium but day to day light to light traffic it just doesn't hold a strong enough benefit.

It's more than capable of slaughtering 90% of the cars on the road with 87 without contest. I just dont see the point or need of putting 93 in it for just 2 - 3 more horses on a stock tune. It's literally indistinguishable unless you are constantly testing the limits of the motor.

[17rsvert]

No one has yet to show any data proving high octane produces more power in the LGX engine or explained where this extra horsepower comes from.