[16Panther]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

2nd gen Chevrolet Traverse and GMC Terrain at Detroit.

I'm guessing the 2nd gen Traverse will suffer like the Acadia but I wish it wouldn't. Update to the LGX, put in modern electronics, fix what needs improving and its still better than a lot of the competition. The new downsized Acadia on the other hand is a disappointment.

Is the Terrain going Chinese, too? Not a fan.

[FenwickHockey65]

2nd gen Traverse will be bigger than 2nd gen Acadia.

And what gives you the idea Terrain is going to China? GM doesn't even sell Terrain there.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 16Panther

I'm guessing the 2nd gen Traverse will suffer like the Acadia but I wish it wouldn't. Update to the LGX, put in modern electronics, fix what needs improving and its still better than a lot of the competition. The new downsized Acadia on the other hand is a disappointment.

Is the Terrain going Chinese, too? Not a fan.

They made the Acadia smaller because owners told GM that it was too big, that the extra size was more of a hassle than an asset. And more importantly, people who bought something similar from another automaker always bought something smaller.

As for the Terrain 'going Chinese' ... why would they add extra foot of legroom for 2nd row passengers? Thats about the only China specific aspect of cars that I know of. And even then, I don't think any automakers export their long wheelbase models to other countries.

[16Panther]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

They made the Acadia smaller because owners told GM that it was too big, that the extra size was more of a hassle than an asset. And more importantly, people who bought something similar from another automaker always bought something smaller.

As for the Terrain 'going Chinese' ... why would they add extra foot of legroom for 2nd row passengers? Thats about the only China specific aspect of cars that I know of. And even then, I don't think any automakers export their long wheelbase models to other countries.

I don't know of a single owner that complained about the Acadia's size. The new, downsized version isn't selling.

The new Buick Envision is the same product family as the replacement Equinox and Terrain. It is made in China.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by 16Panther

I don't know of a single owner that complained about the Acadia's size. The new, downsized version isn't selling.

The new Buick Envision is the same product family as the replacement Equinox and Terrain. It is made in China.

Acadia sales were up 35.3% last month and up 23.7% in October. And if current Acadia owners still want a larger crossover, buy a Traverse or Enclave.

GM sells Envision in China. GM does not sell Equinox/Terrain in China. GM has no reason to build Equinox/Terrain in China.

And by the way, all three Lambda crossovers were indeed way too big. GM needed to at least cut the bloat out of them. From what I understand the C1XX LWB models will be shorter than their Lambda predecessors but the interior packaging will be improved.

[16Panther]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Acadia sales were up 35.3% last month and up 23.7% in October. And if current Acadia owners still want a larger crossover, buy a Traverse or Enclave.

GM sells Envision in China. GM does not sell Equinox/Terrain in China. GM has no reason to build Equinox/Terrain in China.

And by the way, all three Lambda crossovers were indeed way too big. GM needed to at least cut the bloat out of them. From what I understand the C1XX LWB models will be shorter than their Lambda predecessors but the interior packaging will be improved.

There are two Acadia's currently being sold, the Limited and the new one. Are those year to year or from one month to the next increases? Limited, new or combined?

Since when has GM's manufacturing location been tied to where their planned market is? Their shuttering of plants in Michigan has proved they just want cheap labor.

Where are all the bloat complaints coming from on the lambda? Who wants a 7 or 8 passenger SUV with no elbow room or legroom in the last row?

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 16Panther

I don't know of a single owner that complained about the Acadia's size. The new, downsized version isn't selling.

The new Buick Envision is the same product family as the replacement Equinox and Terrain. It is made in China.

And I don't know of a single owner of the Acadia (or any other Lambda crossover) that doesn't wish it was smaller. Thats the problem with using anecdotes instead of data sampling: you don't get the whole picture.

As for sales here is the November sales figures for the US: https://www.gm.com/content/dam/gm/mo...ember-2016.pdf
Cliffs notes: Acadia up 35% (Traverse up 5, Enclave down 24)

October (https://www.gm.com/content/dam/gm/mo...tober-2016.pdf)
Acadia up 24% Traverse up 20, Enclave down 15.

September (https://www.gm.com/content/dam/gm/mo...ember-2016.pdf)

Acadia up 2%, Traverse down 11, Enclave down 16


So no, Acadia sales haven't tanked with the introduction of the new model. Its actually doing better than its bigger, older siblings.





As for the Envision ... yes its made in China. So is the Cruze, and CT6 and many others. The Cruze and CT6 are also made in the United States. Sometimes it makes sense to make the same thing in 2 (or 3 or 4) countries ... other times, it makes more sense to have just 1 assembly plant & export from there. Building the Envision in China means nothing for the Equinox or Terrain.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by 16Panther

There are two Acadia's currently being sold, the Limited and the new one. Are those year to year or from one month to the next increases? Limited, new or combined?

Since when has GM's manufacturing location been tied to where their planned market is? Their shuttering of plants in Michigan has proved they just want cheap labor.

Where are all the bloat complaints coming from on the lambda? Who wants a 7 or 8 passenger SUV with no elbow room or legroom in the last row?

Acadia Limited is only scheduled for production through this month, and the bulk of Acadia sales have been the C1XX model. The last figures I saw were for the 2016 model year through September, and the Limited model only made up about 1/3 of total sales. Nobody in the industry uses a month to month metric, and even if you want to, it still doesn't support your theory since Acadia sales volume has been increasing over the last three month, around the time C1XX inventory became more widespread.

GM has always built where they sell, or at least in close proximity when practical. Buick has a huge market in China which is why Envision manufacturing is there. Equinox/Terrain aren't sold in China so it makes zero sense for GM to build there, having to spend time and money shipping two high volume vehicles to North America alone wouldn't make it worth it. And I'm guessing we're just conveniently ignoring the billions GM has invested into North American plants over the past few years since it doesn't fit your argument for cheap labor.

And just look at the vehicle footprints of the Lambdas, especially from the rear. The bloat is evident and doesn't help at all with curb weight and fuel economy. And again, the two (or three) LWB C1XX models will still be bigger than Acadia, which has been completely reclassified to the midsize segment. It's essentially a new Envoy, only wrong wheel drive (if I'm correct the dimensions are within spitting distance of each other). Not to mention there's been on and off again rumors of an Acadia XL.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 16Panther

There are two Acadia's currently being sold, the Limited and the new one. Are those year to year or from one month to the next increases? Limited, new or combined?

Since when has GM's manufacturing location been tied to where their planned market is? Their shuttering of plants in Michigan has proved they just want cheap labor.

Where are all the bloat complaints coming from on the lambda? Who wants a 7 or 8 passenger SUV with no elbow room or legroom in the last row?

Year to year, unknown on specifics of sales. All I've seen is for 'Acadia'

Automobiles are big, heavy things that are easy to damage & slow to load onto ships. Couple that with the variability that consumers enjoy & the rapid fluctations in market demands & cars are far from ideal candidates for trans-oceanic shipping. Do it when you need to, but avoid it when you can.


What assembly plants have they shut down in Michigan since cutting their dead weight from the bankruptcy? They've reopened one (Orion) that was briefly shuttered. There have been some engine or stamping plants closed, but thats mostly just consolidation. Going from 3 V6 engine families to 1 will inevitably make some plants unnecessary. And yes, this is all done for profit. General Motors is a business, not a charity.

Who wants a crossover with limited 3rd row space? Everyone that has to drive it daily, but maybe uses the 3rd row monthly. Which is the vast majority of owners.

[16Panther]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

And I don't know of a single owner of the Acadia (or any other Lambda crossover) that doesn't wish it was smaller. Thats the problem with using anecdotes instead of data sampling: you don't get the whole picture.

Its not really anecdotal since I've owned a 2011 Traverse and 2015 Acadia and know what I want out the vehicle and participate in their forums, too.

Its also not anecdotal that the sales manager at the largest dealership in my area told me the '17 Acadia sales are off and they aren't moving.

The three data points you provided doesn't necessarily tell all. Sales are down 16-18% from last year while up in months that GM threw money at them. The '17's arrived at dealerships when, in May/June?

Just like Camaro sales, Acadia sales improved once the incentives started hitting.

[KMPrenger]

Well I'll toss my opinion in here as well.

So the Acadia downsized....is that really an issue when its pretty likely that something is coming to fill the "void" between Acadia and Tahoe? So Acadia no longer works for you. Very soon, you'll likely have two or three other GM made options to choose from.

Traverse does and will continue to fill that void on the Chevrolet side. The all new Blazer is coming to fill the void between the downsized Equinox and the Traverse, and it will likely ride on the same platform as Acadia.

My ONLY real beef with this is name confusion. Today, people equate Acadia = Traverse, and Equinox = Terrain, and so on. Well...now that isn't the case so the Acadia downsizing could take people by surprise. I think GM should have just gave the "new" Acadia a new name, like the new Blazer, and kept things status quo.

On a side note: to me, its kind of mind boggling that manufacturers can sell enough of 5 or 6 (or is it more) different sized SUVs from small to large to keep them all viable, but the market for these is hot, so we have lots of choices.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

On a side note: to me, its kind of mind boggling that manufacturers can sell enough of 5 or 6 (or is it more) different sized SUVs from small to large to keep them all viable, but the market for these is hot, so we have lots of choices.

Totally agree. I can't believe we need that many sized options.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by 16Panther

Its not really anecdotal since I've owned a 2011 Traverse and 2015 Acadia and know what I want out the vehicle and participate in their forums, too.

Its also not anecdotal that the sales manager at the largest dealership in my area told me the '17 Acadia sales are off and they aren't moving.

The three data points you provided doesn't necessarily tell all. Sales are down 16-18% from last year while up in months that GM threw money at them. The '17's arrived at dealerships when, in May/June?

Just like Camaro sales, Acadia sales improved once the incentives started hitting.

Those are still all anecdotal. Forums are a terrible metric when establishing what the buying public as a whole thinks because the vast majority of consumers don't care enough about their cars to sign up on a website to talk about them, especially high volume, normal cars like crossovers. And one dealership doesn't represent the entire country.

2017s arrived at dealers around June with extremely tight inventories and if I remember correctly, only spent an average of 11 days on the lot before turning (which makes me think your sales manager either isn't telling you the truth, simply mismanaged the launch at his dealership, or the local market was slow). Inventories became more widespread in following months, which coincide with the monthly increases in sales. And take a look at sales of Traverse/Enclave: they've been off year-over-year too, even more so than Acadia.

And what incentives? The only ones in my area are an ultra low mileage lease for the C1XXs and a financing deal. No cash on the hood. Same thing when I try a Minnesota zip code. The leftover Lambdas have cash on the hood as expected.

Face it: You might not like the fact that GM shifted Acadia to a midsize platform, but there's no hard evidence to suggest it's hurting sales at all. And as KMPrenger and I have pointed out, if the size is that big of an issue, Traverse and Enclave both won't be downsizing to the midsize segment, so it's not like GM abandoned the full size crossover segment completely.

[TimsZ28]

Soo this possible third C1XX LWB "Chi" would be the Cadillac falling below the Escalade?
Then again if you were giving away big secrets I would be open to know more possibilities about what direction Johan is going to go with the Flagship. Not a 4 Door Sedan.... meaning 5 Door, or?