[genxer]

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

I think you guys are overthinking it, GM sells more vehicles in China than in the US, their EV lineup is mostly going to be for China. They're gonna introduce a new Bolt, a new Buick EV, the Hummer, some Cadillacs, and maybe an EV truck over the next 5-7 years in the states. Besides that, I believe the V8 trucks, Corvette and Camaro will remain. If they do switch the Camaro to all electric that will be surprising.

I will never buy an EV though, don't care how good the tech gets until I have no other option but too. I hate the idea of charging a car and I hate the idea of the battery being degraded over time like a phone, the battery life(range) will get worse every year. With gas I can fill up very quickly whenever I need to. With electric, you'll be late to work or get stuck in many places because of slow charging or lack of charging stations.

Also it costs more to charge a vehicle at these stations than it is to fill a gas tank. Europe will tax EV's heavily once tax revenue from ICE vehicles dissipates. I'm very confident that the consumers in the US will resist this change if it is forced on too quickly. These EV cars are too expensive and not convenient enough at the time being.

Even if you're right regarding the Camaro, do people trust GM to further develop and promote the car? And NASCAR doesn't count. Quietness has signaled lame-duck (a self full-filling fail) since roughly '18; and now EV only future. It's not about reasons.

[RagingHawk]

Originally Posted by genxer

Even if you're right regarding the Camaro, do people trust GM to further develop and promote the car? And NASCAR doesn't count. Quietness has signaled lame-duck (a self full-filling fail) since roughly '18; and now EV only future. It's not about reasons.

How much work has to go into a 7th gen ? Isn't the Alpha 2 platform available? Anyhow, its interesting how the current gens of all muscle cars are gonna be extended well throughout 2026 , supposedly. I personally wouldn't mind that as long as they refresh them here and there.

A report came out suggesting the mustang will go full electric in 2028. If true, then so will the Camaro and Dodges. Now I wonder if you can have a manual in EV sports cars and some battery whine. That would be the most we can get if we get lucky, lol.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

How much work has to go into a 7th gen ? Isn't the Alpha 2 platform available? Anyhow, its interesting how the current gens of all muscle cars are gonna be extended well throughout 2026 , supposedly. I personally wouldn't mind that as long as they refresh them here and there.

A report came out suggesting the mustang will go full electric in 2028. If true, then so will the Camaro and Dodges. Now I wonder if you can have a manual in EV sports cars and some battery whine. That would be the most we can get if we get lucky, lol.

Well, as long as there's the CT4 and CT5, I think there is at least a chance the Camaro will live on another generation. GM put big money developing those Caddies, and an all new upgraded 6 speed manual Tremec design is going into the V Blackwings (proof not everyone at General Motors is brain dead - yet).

I doubt they will put all that money into the CT V-series Blackwings which are certain to be limited market, only to not have some sort of bigger market scale absorb some production costs.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Well, as long as there's the CT4 and CT5, I think there is at least a chance the Camaro will live on another generation. GM put big money developing those Caddies, and an all new upgraded 6 speed manual Tremec design is going into the V Blackwings (proof not everyone at General Motors is brain dead - yet).

I doubt they will put all that money into the CT V-series Blackwings which are certain to be limited market, only to not have some sort of bigger market scale absorb some production costs.

Alpha is legacy. VSS-R is the future for RWD. Current gen Camaro extended to 2026. Guess what shows up around then? I hope it happens along with a V8 and a manual transmission.

Or my theory just based on knowing a low roof EV is coming and GM's general strategy, the 7th gen is an EV.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

This is the entire discussion in two lines. Sums it up perfectly.

As car nuts, we all love and appreciate what FCA has been doing.

From a business point of view, one of my friends who owns a Hellcat Charger has his questions about the profit margins on the Hellcats when you consider the fees they pay with all the outsourced performance parts and whatever emission fees they have to pay with CAFE in mind.

Last time I checked, FCA paid Tesla a lot to get emission credits and they also paid some fines in Europe regarding emissions. Not a good outlook. It's just that FCA has enough money to not give a crap about the business... for now.

I don't exactly think GM's approach is great when it comes to EV(shoving it down everyone's throat), but they at least have a plan. It's a necessary evil, so to speak.

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Well, as long as there's the CT4 and CT5, I think there is at least a chance the Camaro will live on another generation. GM put big money developing those Caddies, and an all new upgraded 6 speed manual Tremec design is going into the V Blackwings (proof not everyone at General Motors is brain dead - yet).

I doubt they will put all that money into the CT V-series Blackwings which are certain to be limited market, only to not have some sort of bigger market scale absorb some production costs.

The manual trans in Cadillac V just make the lack of manual trans in the Vette even more puzzling.

It's like Toyota with Zupr4. It's a low-volume sports car and they have to work with someone else to lower development cost. That's all well and good, but please explain how you guys then did the Yaris GR all on your own, knowing that it won't sell in high volumes and even refuse to bring them to North America.

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

I will never buy an EV though, don't care how good the tech gets until I have no other option but too. I hate the idea of charging a car and I hate the idea of the battery being degraded over time like a phone, the battery life(range) will get worse every year. With gas I can fill up very quickly whenever I need to. With electric, you'll be late to work or get stuck in many places because of slow charging or lack of charging stations.

Also it costs more to charge a vehicle at these stations than it is to fill a gas tank. Europe will tax EV's heavily once tax revenue from ICE vehicles dissipates. I'm very confident that the consumers in the US will resist this change if it is forced on too quickly. These EV cars are too expensive and not convenient enough at the time being.

Some of your reasons aren't making sense.

Why would you be late for work if you plug the car in to charge over night? You wake up to full batteries every morning, and even a car that's fully warmed up/cooled inside in the garage waiting for you. With gas cars, you waste gas on preheating the cabin and if you park in a garage, the car will fill it up with unburnt gas and carbon monoxide.

Some vehicles have figured out battery degradation. Supposedly Tesla have very little battery degradation over the years. New EV/hybrid cars also are legally required to have an 8-year warranty on the batteries. If you look, most hybrids and EVs don't use the full battery capacity. When you don't charge batteries fully and deplete it fully, they degrade very slowly. Of course your smartphones and laptops have more battery degradation as we always charge to 100% and then use them until they have 20% or so left before charging.

For short-distance commuting, EV is perfect. Drive it and forget it, and you can dedicate your effort to the fun car. They aren't for everyone, but if I have the money and space for one, I would definitely consider one.


Sent from toaster or something

[RagingHawk]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Well, as long as there's the CT4 and CT5, I think there is at least a chance the Camaro will live on another generation. GM put big money developing those Caddies, and an all new upgraded 6 speed manual Tremec design is going into the V Blackwings (proof not everyone at General Motors is brain dead - yet).

I doubt they will put all that money into the CT V-series Blackwings which are certain to be limited market, only to not have some sort of bigger market scale absorb some production costs.

Yeah that's my line of thinking ... and someone brought that low roof-line EV coupe but I've heard it isn't a Camaro. Even if it is, I think it will replace the Turbo 4/6 Camaro's. But, SS and ZL1 will remain V8's. There is no reason why GM can't retain the V8 in the Camaro. They are keeping them in the full size trucks and SUVS that were just redesigned for at least until 2028.

An AWD EV Camaro LS/LT model would be great and help with Camaro sales. While SS/ZL1 should remain V8 and rear wheel drive.

[90503]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Why would you be late for work if you plug the car in to charge over night? You wake up to full batteries every morning, and even a car that's fully warmed up/cooled inside in the garage waiting for you.

For short-distance commuting, EV is perfect. Drive it and forget it, and you can dedicate your effort to the fun car. They aren't for everyone, but if I have the money and space for one, I would definitely consider one.


Sent from toaster or something

Here's what an EV should be used for to fit your example above. They make these now, but not available in the US. Gee, I wonder why. Your scenario above makes sense, except for one thing....the price. 40-50-60K and more for a commuter car? That is the economic non-sense we are forced to believe.

With the price of a new EV, you will never break even in gas savings in one or two life-times. Not including the cost of the electricity and the inevitable other road taxes and fees that EVs will soon have far and above gasoline costs. Electricity is no bargain. Ok evs, have no transmission, exhaust, etc. that ICE vehicles have. BFD. Where is the savings on the sticker price of new EVs?

I'd buy this thing below, let it charge (outside) on a common extension cord, and be good to go for a work trip, getting groceries, etc. the next day. No nation-wide government controlled charging infrastructure needed. But only if it's at the price they sell for...4,5, or 6K....Then I'll go "EV".

[RagingHawk]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Some of your reasons aren't making sense.

Why would you be late for work if you plug the car in to charge over night? You wake up to full batteries every morning, and even a car that's fully warmed up/cooled inside in the garage waiting for you. With gas cars, you waste gas on preheating the cabin and if you park in a garage, the car will fill it up with unburnt gas and carbon monoxide.

Some vehicles have figured out battery degradation. Supposedly Tesla have very little battery degradation over the years. New EV/hybrid cars also are legally required to have an 8-year warranty on the batteries. If you look, most hybrids and EVs don't use the full battery capacity. When you don't charge batteries fully and deplete it fully, they degrade very slowly. Of course your smartphones and laptops have more battery degradation as we always charge to 100% and then use them until they have 20% or so left before charging.

For short-distance commuting, EV is perfect. Drive it and forget it, and you can dedicate your effort to the fun car. They aren't for everyone, but if I have the money and space for one, I would definitely consider one.


Sent from toaster or something

You are assuming everyone will have a charger? What about those living in apartment complexes that haven't installed them yet? What if wife or family member took the car for the night and forgot to put it on charger overnight? What if you came late and don't have a fast charger then next morning you are in negative temperatures and range gets cut in half?

It's not true that the battery degradation is minimal, Tesla is trying to improve efficiency but you still will lose a chunk of your range within 2-3 years. In really cold climates the range is significantly worse.

It's true they are good for commuting, in the sense they provide instant torque and are better for the environment, but that's it for the time being. ICE vehicles are just as good if not better for commuting as well. I'm sure the EV tech will get better over time but we are working with what we have today.

I have no problem with people wanting an EV. I'd get a hatchback, sporty AWD EV in the future for daily driving. However, problem is they are forcing the industry this way, sports cars will get cancelled and forced to go EV. EV sport coupes/muscle cars will not match their original ICE experience. They lose range quite quickly if you drive aggressively and they can't track for longer periods. They will also be quite boring and there will be less to differentiate between EV sports coupes/muscle cars. If they make a brand new EV coupe or sport sedan or whatever, I am all for it. They should not kill what a Camaro, Mustang , Challenger and Charger are though.

They can kill all the CUV's/SUVS they want(that make up majority of sales) since those things come with 1.5l 4 cylinders nowadays and EV is a better application for those vehicles.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by 90503

Here's what an EV should be used for to fit your example above. They make these now, but not available in the US. Gee, I wonder why. Your scenario above makes sense, except for one thing....the price. 40-50-60K and more for a commuter car? That is the economic non-sense we are forced to believe.

With the price of a new EV, you will never break even in gas savings in one or two life-times. Not including the cost of the electricity and the inevitable other road taxes and fees that EVs will soon have far and above gasoline costs. Electricity is no bargain. Ok evs, have no transmission, exhaust, etc. that ICE vehicles have. BFD. Where is the savings on the sticker price of new EVs?

I'd buy this thing below, let it charge (outside) on a common extension cord, and be good to go for a work trip, getting groceries, etc. the next day. No nation-wide government controlled charging infrastructure needed. But only if it's at the price they sell for...4,5, or 6K....Then I'll go "EV".

Attachment 1056366

There's no way that this passes US crash standards but GM really should look into a similar concept and price point for the US market. Been saying that since the first gen debuted. It's cheap enough to where it's one of those things you just go out and buy on a whim.

[RagingHawk]

Mercedes just revealed an EV front wheel drive CUV estimated to have 268 miles of range, $50,000, 30 minutes to charge to full if you have rapid charge available to you, otherwise 5 hours plus overnight. 99mph top speed, lmao.

'If you charge it overnight you can get 100 miles range back just like that, isn't that awesome!'. 'Just charge it every night and several times a day during the week'. 'It's amazing stuff'.

Did EV people forget that you can fill up an ICE vehicle in 2 minutes, for the whole week? Or at most twice a week? lol.

[detamble13]

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

A report came out suggesting the mustang will go full electric in 2028. If true, then so will the Camaro and Dodges. Now I wonder if you can have a manual in EV sports cars and some battery whine. That would be the most we can get if we get lucky, lol.

Maybe not. The way Dodge is going the meme below sums it up nicely. And to be honest I'd rather have this van in my driveway next to the Camaro than the Toyota Sienna we have.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

Yeah that's my line of thinking ... and someone brought that low roof-line EV coupe but I've heard it isn't a Camaro. Even if it is, I think it will replace the Turbo 4/6 Camaro's. But, SS and ZL1 will remain V8's. There is no reason why GM can't retain the V8 in the Camaro. They are keeping them in the full size trucks and SUVS that were just redesigned for at least until 2028.

An AWD EV Camaro LS/LT model would be great and help with Camaro sales. While SS/ZL1 should remain V8 and rear wheel drive.

That's two different platforms for the Camaro though in a dying segment. Plus an AWD EV performance focused Camaro might outperform the V8 SS/ZL1 RWD. GM has abandoned hybrids except the rumored Corvette. A hybrid V8 Camaro would be awesome. Better fuel mileage, performance, and it would still have soul. Cost might be an issue though.

[90503]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

There's no way that this passes US crash standards but GM really should look into a similar concept and price point for the US market. Been saying that since the first gen debuted. It's cheap enough to where it's one of those things you just go out and buy on a whim.

I agree. They need to make an EV that performs as advertised. I think they would have a winner if they were honest about EV' true performance. Instead of always trying to make us believe these evs are no problem, make one that does just what it claims: "It's good enough for once a day routine low miles driving. Then you have to charge it at home all night to be able to drive it the next day. You might go 50 miles if you stomp on it, or 75-90 miles if you drive gently. Don't take it across country or on long trips...It won't make it."

And price it extremely affordable. Who knows, an "entry level" ev might sell like hot cakes. Everything offered now is way too expensive, even on the low end, if a low end exists, and still falls short of what an ICE vehicle offers in all types of travel. Especially if you know you are only going to drive it no more than the actual miles each day it takes for a full charge. Those who want to save the planet and have a useful vehicle just for minimal driving at an affordable, economical price, should jump all over this.

The price needs to make sense with how it will be used. It needs to compete with used gas car beaters in price and purpose.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by detamble13

Maybe not. The way Dodge is going the meme below sums it up nicely. And to be honest I'd rather have this van in my driveway next to the Camaro than the Toyota Sienna we have.

Hell I'd take that van over any electric Camaro or Mustang.

Added bonus: plenty of room in the back for snorting blow off a stripper's ass.