[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ThirteenTwenty

The Dealer pays invoice Price minus their "hold back" to Ford/GM,It makes no difference to Ford or GM what the dealer sells the car for. Just as Ford/GM make nothing on ADM, they lose nothing if the Dealer sells below invoice.


The difference is that the cost of the platform has to be offset by the margin of the total # of vehicles sold. Dodges LX platforms has sold over 1 million Chrysler 300's alone. That platform was long ago paid for so Dodge can "afford" to make small profits off low volume. Its highly unlikely an advanced platform like Alpha has been paid for with the small unit volume it has seen.

So what you're describing is profit. Am I right? It all boils down to how much they profit off the car. And profit takes into account everything. R&D, production costs, materials, labor costs, sales, facility costs, etc...down to minuscule details that you, I, and nobody else even realize. The end result is profit. Meaning once all the costs are tallied, how much money is being put in your pocket. And if the Camaro is not making enough profit to justify it's continued production, then that is a problem. Am I right? So if it does make enough profit regardless of one or two variables, then it is well worth continuing production. Am I right? So when you look at sales alone, if you don't know production costs, production numbers, how much above production each individual unit brings in and put together as a whole, etc, can you honestly tell me that sales are a problem? Just looking at sales alone, what can you tell me besides the fact that the Mustang sells more? Do we even know how many units GM NEEDS to sell to make a decent enough profit? Do we know how many are produced. What percentage of them are sold as compared to Mustangs? Can anybody on here give me an intelligent reply to this question? The fact that I have asked and it has not been answered in over a year tells me that nobody knows and any speculation is simply based on opinion, imagination, delusion, fantasy, whatever.

[Laststandard]

I hope the GT500 beats the ZLE, and gives Chevy a reason to drop the LT5 into the Camaro.. Would be a good way for the 6th gen to (potentially) go out on top.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Laststandard

I hope the GT500 beats the ZLE, and gives Chevy a reason to drop the LT5 into the Camaro.. Would be a good way for the 6th gen to (potentially) go out on top.

I would not be surprised to see LT5 in a Camaro, but I wouldn’t expect it in Gen 6. It’s okay for Camaro to share an engine with Z06. Not so much ZR1. When ZR1 finishes its run, LT5 becomes a “free agent” and can land in a number of places. A Cadillac? Like CT5-V? Or Escalade-V? Or a Cadillac sports car? Definitely a Camaro. But ZR1 has to be dormant for that to happen. We’re talking 2021-22. And that would be likely timing for CA7.

[ThirteenTwenty]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So what you're describing is profit. Am I right? It all boils down to how much they profit off the car. And profit takes into account everything. R&D, production costs, materials, labor costs, sales, facility costs, etc...down to minuscule details that you, I, and nobody else even realize. The end result is profit. Meaning once all the costs are tallied, how much money is being put in your pocket. And if the Camaro is not making enough profit to justify it's continued production, then that is a problem. Am I right? So if it does make enough profit regardless of one or two variables, then it is well worth continuing production. Am I right? So when you look at sales alone, if you don't know production costs, production numbers, how much above production each individual unit brings in and put together as a whole, etc, can you honestly tell me that sales are a problem? Just looking at sales alone, what can you tell me besides the fact that the Mustang sells more? Do we even know how many units GM NEEDS to sell to make a decent enough profit? Do we know how many are produced. What percentage of them are sold as compared to Mustangs? Can anybody on here give me an intelligent reply to this question? The fact that I have asked and it has not been answered in over a year tells me that nobody knows and any speculation is simply based on opinion, imagination, delusion, fantasy, whatever.

Neither you nor I know how many Alpha vehicles need to be sold to reach black ink for the platform or Mustangs for that matter. I suspect they are well below that number given how poorly the Caddy's have sold and Camaro sales being what they are. I could be wrong , but it's hard for me to believe the production #'s have covered R&D and tooling at this point. Maybe Jim Martin can shed some light?

As far as "If it makes a profit does it justify its continuation?" Thats depends I suppose, If GM feels they could produce another vehicle that would cost similarly in R&D/tooling but sell much more and return more profit then no it doesn't warrant continuation. Same for Mustang, but I believe there is more at stake with axing Mustang for Ford.

[ChefBorOzzy]

Jesus, these Ford guys are annoying. I wonder how Subaru has been able to keep the Legacy around selling 20-60k a year when Honda sells 300k Accords. I mean, how is that possible? It's being outsold 5 fold at the very least. Should have been dead 10 years ago going by logic spewed by some that come on here.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ThirteenTwenty

Neither you nor I know how many Alpha vehicles need to be sold to reach black ink for the platform or Mustangs for that matter. I suspect they are well below that number given how poorly the Caddy's have sold and Camaro sales being what they are. I could be wrong , but it's hard for me to believe the production #'s have covered R&D and tooling at this point. Maybe Jim Martin can shed some light?

As far as "If it makes a profit does it justify its continuation?" Thats depends I suppose, If GM feels they could produce another vehicle that would cost similarly in R&D/tooling but sell much more and return more profit then no it doesn't warrant continuation. Same for Mustang, but I believe there is more at stake with axing Mustang for Ford.

Jim has already shared eough information with us including outright telling us that sales was not even the reason for the Camaro being discontinued from 03-09. Page 48 and post 661. And that was not even the first time he explained this. And I'm pretty sure he explained the same exact thing over on M6G which GSJ frequents. So he (GSJ) has seen this info in great detail multiple times as recently as 2 days ago. Yet he continues to insist that sales are the only thing that matters.

GM is not going to drop the Camaro for some new model and to suggest that is a bit off if you ask me. Neither will Ford drop the Mustang. If you recall, they tried that back in the 90s with the Probe to which they received a very bad reaction and decided against it. I could see GM adding a better selling car to the lineup. Or adopting some features or even calling it a "Camaro". But they are not gonna drop the Camaro for a different model.

It isn't hard to believe that GM covered the R&D costs. They already had the LT1 and LT4 developed since it was in the Corvettes first. Same with the A8 trans. The chassis was shared. The A10 trans was co-developed. And they did not do any crazy revisions...certainly not having to re-build the entire car mid-Gen like Frod had to do with the Mustang. There were no recalls to the extent that Frod had with the GT350 that I remember. So all those items saves on costs tremendously. Running an efficient production plant saves also. So for all you know, GM could have spent very little on the Camaro and therefore only needs to sell a small amount of them to pull a profit. Perhaps the Mustang HAS to sell as much as possible to stay afloat. Perhaps Frod had to allow their engineers to build the PP2 off the books and off the clock and then decided not to throw coolers on it because they could not afford the costs of doing all that. Perhaps the GT500 was delayed due to costs and them not being able to afford to build it. There are soo many things that one could speculate. But if the Camaro is doing as badly as you wanna believe, then why isn't GM budging on price, offering more incentives, aggressively advertising it, etc?? If sales are that poor, wouldn't someone start doing something??

[BlaqWhole]

The sad thing is that the ZLE took the top honors in handling while the Hellcat and Redeye took top honors in straight line work. Each of those two have been out all this time. The GT500 after 6 years of development might not claim top honors in either category at all. Plus GM released the ZL1 in 17 followed by the ZLE in 18 all the while Ford was still working on the PP2, Bullitt, and GT500. So how much time has GM had to build something killer for the 7th Gen VS the little bit of time Ford will have. Whatever the GT500 does, it will be short-lived. Like maybe a year or two. GM will put out something for the 7th Gen to smack it right back down and take the crown again. And then they'll move on to the next one while Ford will be stuck playing catch up yet again. All of this is another reason why Ford failed with the S550.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by ThirteenTwenty

Neither you nor I know how many Alpha vehicles need to be sold to reach black ink for the platform or Mustangs for that matter. I suspect they are well below that number given how poorly the Caddy's have sold and Camaro sales being what they are. I could be wrong , but it's hard for me to believe the production #'s have covered R&D and tooling at this point. Maybe Jim Martin can shed some light?

As far as "If it makes a profit does it justify its continuation?" Thats depends I suppose, If GM feels they could produce another vehicle that would cost similarly in R&D/tooling but sell much more and return more profit then no it doesn't warrant continuation. Same for Mustang, but I believe there is more at stake with axing Mustang for Ford.

I looked up the 2018 volume for Aplha (Camaro/CTS/ATS) and it was ~800 units less than Mustang.

GM needs Camaro as long as they want to be in the high end coupe/sedan segment with Cadillac. Mustang is rumored to share a SUV chassis (right?). Mustang could very well de-emphasis performance. Ala Mustang II.

This is why I smh with all the Camaro will be discontinued celebrations. This whole segment is underperforming and none will survive to see 2028 at 2018 volumes.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The sad thing is that the ZLE took the top honors in handling while the Hellcat and Redeye took top honors in straight line work. Each of those two have been out all this time. The GT500 after 6 years of development might not claim top honors in either category at all. Plus GM released the ZL1 in 17 followed by the ZLE in 18 all the while Ford was still working on the PP2, Bullitt, and GT500. So how much time has GM had to build something killer for the 7th Gen VS the little bit of time Ford will have. Whatever the GT500 does, it will be short-lived. Like maybe a year or two. GM will put out something for the 7th Gen to smack it right back down and take the crown again. And then they'll move on to the next one while Ford will be stuck playing catch up yet again. All of this is another reason why Ford failed with the S550.

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Please describe your Failed with the S550 statement? It has sold almost 3x as many Mustangs as Camaros. The fastest GT is presently faster than the SS by allot as reviewed and has been for nearly 2 years.

The GT350 has received praise throughout the automotive world at introduction and continues to do so as the car you want. The only folks calling it a failure are within this forum.

The 500 will soon be released and will likely be faster than anything the Camaro has to offer in any trim level.

So IMO it is the Camaro presently failing or clinging to the life raft. Its 3-year dominance in the segment is over.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I looked up the 2018 volume for Aplha (Camaro/CTS/ATS) and it was ~800 units less than Mustang.

GM needs Camaro as long as they want to be in the high end coupe/sedan segment with Cadillac. Mustang is rumored to share a SUV chassis (right?). Mustang could very well de-emphasis performance. Ala Mustang II.

This is why I smh with all the Camaro will be discontinued celebrations. This whole segment is underperforming and none will survive to see 2028 at 2018 volumes.

Actually, this will be a good move for Ford. There will likely be no compromise at all sharing the platform with utilities. More modern body frame integral architectures are very adaptable to different "top hats". Think Audi A7 / A8 (including S7 and RS7) and Audi Q7. Same platform. No compromises.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Please describe your Failed with the S550 statement? It has sold almost 3x as many Mustangs as Camaros. The fastest GT is presently faster than the SS by allot as reviewed and has been for nearly 2 years.

The GT350 has received praise throughout the automotive world at introduction and continues to do so as the car you want. The only folks calling it a failure are within this forum.

The 500 will soon be released and will likely be faster than anything the Camaro has to offer in any trim level.

So IMO it is the Camaro presently failing or clinging to the life raft. Its 3-year dominance in the segment is over.

Magazines have one goal...to sell magazines. So any praise they give to one car over another can be attributed to them trying to keep their customers happy. A better sense for how the car fares is to read actual owner reviews. On the Camaro pages there have been lots of former GT350 guys who got rid of that junk for a ZL1 and each of them has said they would do it all over again in a heartbeat, that the ZL1 is a much better performing car, and that they prefer it over the Shelby. I have yet to see one person who switched from a ZL1 to a GT350 R or non-R. LOL!!

GT is faster but only after redesigning the entire car from the ground up. It spent most of it's life getting destroyed. The 370Z was more a match for the GT than the GT was for the SS, lol!! Even after the extensive rebuild it still suffered many engine problems. The PP2 coolers fiasco. The list goes on. I can round off several things. All you can mention is sales, lol, which we all know means nothing. The GT500 is the only saving grace and even it won't be top dog in any of the categories that matter except for being the most expensive, the longest to develop, and having the highest markups. And who knows what engine, trans, suspension, problems will plague even that thing.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ThirteenTwenty

Neither you nor I know how many Alpha vehicles need to be sold to reach black ink for the platform or Mustangs for that matter. I suspect they are well below that number given how poorly the Caddy's have sold and Camaro sales being what they are. I could be wrong , but it's hard for me to believe the production #'s have covered R&D and tooling at this point. Maybe Jim Martin can shed some light?

As far as "If it makes a profit does it justify its continuation?" Thats depends I suppose, If GM feels they could produce another vehicle that would cost similarly in R&D/tooling but sell much more and return more profit then no it doesn't warrant continuation. Same for Mustang, but I believe there is more at stake with axing Mustang for Ford.

I got nothin'. Too many variables to the equation. What is the installed capacity? What's the break even volume? What's the additional investment going from Alpha to Alpha 2?

From a strategic point of view, Alpha is here to stay because Cadillac is Alpha and Chi (XT5 / XT6). GM will work hard to improve the products position in the marketplace before considering shutting it down. To that extent, Camaro provides a volume relief valve. More volume is better, low volume does not mean kill.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Please describe your Failed with the S550 statement? It has sold almost 3x as many Mustangs as Camaros. The fastest GT is presently faster than the SS by allot as reviewed and has been for nearly 2 years.

The GT350 has received praise throughout the automotive world at introduction and continues to do so as the car you want. The only folks calling it a failure are within this forum.

The 500 will soon be released and will likely be faster than anything the Camaro has to offer in any trim level.

So IMO it is the Camaro presently failing or clinging to the life raft. Its 3-year dominance in the segment is over.

If the Camaro's dominance being possibly at an end is a sign of failure, then how can the Mustang taking this long to be competitive not a failure?

You LOVE talking about how one specific configuration of the Mustang GT is 'a lot' faster than any Camaro SS. Why is a lack of a competitive manual GT not a failure? Oops, I forgot we don't dare acknowledge the existence of the Manual GT due to its utterly embarrassing performance numbers.

You wear rose colored glasses when looking at the Mustang, and wonder why you're never in agreement with people on a Camaro forum. If the GT350 was really that good, worth the $, I am pretty sure you would have traded the Boss for one and wouldn't keep talking about what magazines think about it.

Good enough to praise, but not good enough to buy....got it.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Good enough to praise, but not good enough to buy....got it.

Let's not forget that all the praise they gave it came before the engine oil consumption issues, the fire hazard issues, the drivetrain issues, etc. They were given the car for 1 day when it was brand new, test drove it and tested it for that day, gave it back, and then wrote reviews. If I had a brand new GT350 for one whole day and got the thrash it then I'm sure I'd praise it too. After a month, year, I'm sure I'd realize what a failure Ford created. hence why soo many of them are switching over to ZL1s and Z06s yet not one of us switched over to one of those heaps, lol!!