[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Good points. In some areas of the US, power companies do provide incentives to install Level 2 chargers (irrespective of income) and some provide assistance (based on income ) to upgrade electrical circuits to accept the Level 2 charger, but those are few and far between. Since there will be ICE products available, that will essentially be a non-issue. Can’t or don’t want to pay for a circuit upgrade? Don’t. Get an ICE vehicle.

There is no doubt that the current population of BEV owners is skewed heavily to the higher end of the income curve. That’s true simply because of the range of product available on the market. As more “affordable” BEVs come to market, the curve will bend more towards normal. The Mustang Mach E and the Volkswagen ID.4 will be the first in that category to come to market soon. The Chevrolet Bolt EV is already in market and reasonably priced, but it has two strikes against it. For one, GM vehicles no longer qualify for the $7,500 tax credit, and two, its form factor (small B-Segment hatchback) is one that has never played well in the US market. VW ID.4 is a compact utility and will qualify for the tax credit, as will the Mustang Mach E. Those are the ones to watch in terms of demographics.

I'm truly against subsidized vehicle sales...what a disgrace.

Either way, agreed with this post, even though EV won't work well in my scenario. I'm still on Gordon Murray's outlook that as time progresses, so will the switch to Hydrogen with EVs being a stepping stone. From there, it's plausible that petrol ICE will die, and only EV and Hydrogen fuel cell will remain.

The argument against Hydrogen delivery infrastructure seems silly to me. There are plenty of places to get propane across NA - while the tanks wouldn't be useful, the sites already exist, many among gas stations.

Here is some valuable reading for those who think hydrogen is a bomb:

https://hydrogen.wsu.edu/2017/03/17/...hydrogen-fuel/

EDIT: Level 1 charging also won't work in my scenario. It's 20 miles in a single direction to the nearest town. Yes I love the country, and no I won't ever move into a city, lol.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

I'm truly against subsidized vehicle sales...what a disgrace.

Either way, agreed with this post, even though EV won't work well in my scenario. I'm still on Gordon Murray's outlook that as time progresses, so will the switch to Hydrogen with EVs being a stepping stone. From there, it's plausible that petrol ICE will die, and only EV and Hydrogen fuel cell will remain.

The argument against Hydrogen delivery infrastructure seems silly to me. There are plenty of places to get propane across NA - while the tanks wouldn't be useful, the sites already exist, many among gas stations.

Here is some valuable reading for those who think hydrogen is a bomb:

https://hydrogen.wsu.edu/2017/03/17/...hydrogen-fuel/

EDIT: Level 1 charging also won't work in my scenario. It's 20 miles in a single direction to the nearest town. Yes I love the country, and no I won't ever move into a city, lol.

One of my consulting projects now is on how to deliver hydrogen from where it is formulated to where it will be delivered to the vehicle. Leading prospects include diesel powered tankers. Wish I was joking...can’t say more without potentially violating NDA. Nowhere near as simple as transporting propane. Cost for a distribution location (equivalent to a gas station or Tesla Supercharger location) is in the $2M range per location. Nothing simple about this. That’s why it ain’t here yet.

Hydrogen fuel cells have two advantages over BEV, and one of them is going away fast. Refuel time is on par with gasoline. That’s an advantage for now, but time required to recharge BEVs is getting lower and lower with each generation of battery tech development. The Mustang Mach E can deliver 60 miles of range in 10 minutes. Compared to a Level 1 charger that needs 10 hours to fully charge from empty. Now keep in mind that a typical BEV owner will rarely use a publicly available DC Fast Charger because they will start each morning with a full charge with more than 200 miles range. That will get most drivers through entire week, let alone a day. And for those for whom that is insufficient, there’s still ICE.

The other advantage is fuel cell vehicles tend to be less load sensitive than BEVs. Which makes it great for freight hauling and highway driving, while BEVs are better for light loads and urban / suburban duty cycles. In effect, FCEV is the “diesel” to BEV “gas”.

[90503]

It almost seems self-defeating for EVs to have it be common knowledge that the longer you wait, the EVs technology, charge-time, power, affordability, range distance and infrastructure will all be substantially improved. With ICE still being status quo, I would find it hard to justify jumping into the EV game anytime soon.

The longer you can wait, it seems, the more bang you will get for your buck. Early EV adodpters will likely have buyer's remorse in the not too distant future.

Even though you could say the same has always been true for ICE vehicles, it seems much more pronounced and obvious with EVs. Just sayin'...

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

I'm truly against subsidized vehicle sales...what a disgrace.

Exactly. Winners and losers should be chosen by the free market. Why does the government need to make EVs more attractive to the consumer? Line up your best offerings, compete against the rest, and win our business with a superior product.

[FenwickHockey65]

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/202...cing-confirmed


GMSV plans providing speculation for 6th gen Camaro production to continue through 2026.

[AZCamaroFan]

then there better be another face - and -butt lift factored in

[Bhobbs]

Some power upgrades too. They can’t keep it going with the ZL1 1LE still being the newest performance variant.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Some power upgrades too. They can’t keep it going with the ZL1 1LE still being the newest performance variant.

World class performance and 650HP not enough?

They'll shuffle colors in and out, a few appearance packages, and it'll limp along in 3rd place until they're ready to introduce the EV. Extending the current car is the best we could hope for honestly. I hope it's true. And I hope i'm wrong and we get an ICE VSS-R Camaro.

In the meantime, buy 'em up folks.

[roorback]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

then there better be another face - and -butt lift factored in

A real shame people aren't buying the 16 and up camaro. Absolutely insane performance cars. They definitely aren't lookers though. Mustangs are also ugly but sell for some reason.

It's stunning to me a relatively unchanged, mostly straight-line performer like the Chally sells like it does.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by snizzle

World class performance and 650HP not enough?

They'll shuffle colors in and out, a few appearance packages, and it'll limp along in 3rd place until they're ready to introduce the EV. Extending the current car is the best we could hope for honestly. I hope it's true. And I hope i'm wrong and we get an ICE VSS-R Camaro.

In the meantime, buy 'em up folks.

Obviously it’s not. People aren’t buying Camaros, no matter what lap times they put down.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Obviously it’s not. People aren’t buying Camaros, no matter what lap times they put down.

So why would power upgrades improve the situation as you suggested?

[2013ZL1FUN]

The latest incarnation of modern Camaros, 5th Gen up, don`t look that good. Until the look is changed, people are not going to be accepting of this car, especially for new to the genre buyers.

[Crushin_LT1]

Originally Posted by 2013ZL1FUN

The latest incarnation of modern Camaros, 5th Gen up, don`t look that good. Until the look is changed, people are not going to be accepting of this car, especially for new to the genre buyers.

I'm not sure the looks are as much an issue as practicality, visibility, daily driveability.


Visibility is terrible compared to competition.


Practicality is terrible compared to competition.


Competition here would be similar coupes - Audi A5/S5, BMW 2/4, Mercedes C/E coupes, Mustang, Challenger.


I love my camaro and the feel but you are sacrificing compared to almost any competition that is similarly affordable.

[snizzle]

Do people really care about practicality or visibility on a car in this segment? I don't. The 5th gen wasn't practical in any way. But if performance isn't the problem (it's not) relative to the competition, and it looks the part (subjective), then I guess you could be onto something. This car does what it was built to do, in many cases better than the competition, but it's not enough. When Chevy is doing the autopsy in the next few years, they'll have to figure it out for the Camaro EV because they're likely going to lose the traditional muscle car guy/gal.