Is This Normal?

Joel2702zzz · 06-10-2018, 07:54 PM

Car has full bolt on's minus E85, rev limit is at 6800,
when we shift at anything under 6500 it's ok, but anything over that it gets about 10 degrees of knock retard, I don't think it's normal but dad disagrees, what do you guys think and how do we fix it.

PS don't say anything about the rev limit we know it's not making peak power up there, but it's still making 450+ whp.

KonigWolf · 06-10-2018, 10:11 PM

Mine did the same thing when I tried to push it much past 6600, I think it's the DoD lifters starting to act a fool, an shit just snowballs from there. I tried a lot of different things and nothing tune wise fixed it. The only solution I can think of would be doing a DoD delete//lift swap, which pretty much means a cam swap.

aka Reckless · 06-11-2018, 02:10 PM

Define "bolt-ons"

Probably in the valve train though (harmonics)

Mavericka70 · 06-11-2018, 04:59 PM

Mine does the same thing after a cam swap. I'm running LS7 lifters and my knock sensors are desensitized, but I get pretty consistent knock at 6550 or so. I tried adding/pulling timing and fuel and it's still there, leading me to believe that it's probably false knock.

KingLT1 · 06-11-2018, 07:27 PM

I believe you need to eliminate VVT so the ECM can no longer adjust cam timing and that fixes the issue. The phase limiter kit does not solve the problem, you actually need to buy the lockout kit. Pretty sure Pray Performance started going this route on his cam cars.

Mavericka70 · 06-11-2018, 08:32 PM

I log cam angle, and I only command 2 degrees above 6k, but it does 'walk' to as much as 12 degrees. Once cam angle passes 5.9 degrees, the knock retard ramps up(happens consistently at about 6550), leading me to believe it's from the noise of the cam phaser not being able to overcome the dual valve springs. I've also turned vvt off and logged cam angle and it stays at 0 the whole time, but it still knocks.

I've also heard of forms of torque management pulling timing and showing up as knock retard, but I can not confirm. Most of the torque tables end at 6600rpms, so it's something to think about.

Joel2702zzz · 06-11-2018, 09:24 PM

Additionally, there seems to be a drop in throttle at high rpm(6800+)the tps
reading goes down eventually down to 40%, not sure what's causing this i'm pretty sure we're keeping the pedal to the metal the whole time.

And by bolt on's I mean full exhaust/catless headers, MSD manifold, CAI,ported throttle body.

Juiced1 · 06-11-2018, 10:09 PM

That's a lot of RPM for the stock valve train especially with the DOD.

Joel2702zzz · 06-11-2018, 11:21 PM

Do manual cars have DOD?

Mavericka70 · 06-12-2018, 01:00 AM

Manual cars have the dod lifters, but they're not activated in the tune. If the throttle is getting pulled, you need to log delivered torque and predicted torque. You may need to adjust your driver demand tables or your torque tables, if the torque demand is met, it will pull throttle to keep it there.

06-10-2018, 07:54 PM	#1
Joel2702zzz Drives: My Dad's car is a '16 1SS 6MT Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Menifee CA Posts: 76	Is This Normal? Car has full bolt on's minus E85, rev limit is at 6800, when we shift at anything under 6500 it's ok, but anything over that it gets about 10 degrees of knock retard, I don't think it's normal but dad disagrees, what do you guys think and how do we fix it. PS don't say anything about the rev limit we know it's not making peak power up there, but it's still making 450+ whp.

06-10-2018, 10:11 PM	#2
KonigWolf Drives: 2016 2SS A8 Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 217	Mine did the same thing when I tried to push it much past 6600, I think it's the DoD lifters starting to act a fool, an shit just snowballs from there. I tried a lot of different things and nothing tune wise fixed it. The only solution I can think of would be doing a DoD delete//lift swap, which pretty much means a cam swap. __________________ 16 Summit White 2SS-MRC-NPP-A8 :: PrayPorted IM - LT5 TB - Mishimoto Catch Can - RotorFab - E85 - TSP 2" LongTubes - Speed Engineering X/Mid Pipe DIY Hpt Tune - DR - 1.75-60' - 7.47@95 - 11.56@120 with +2676DA

06-11-2018, 07:27 PM	#5
KingLT1 Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: 46804 Posts: 6,798	I believe you need to eliminate VVT so the ECM can no longer adjust cam timing and that fixes the issue. The phase limiter kit does not solve the problem, you actually need to buy the lockout kit. Pretty sure Pray Performance started going this route on his cam cars. __________________ 2016 NFG 1SS A8 Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA

06-11-2018, 08:32 PM	#6
Mavericka70 Drives: '17 1ss m6 Join Date: May 2018 Location: Arkansas Posts: 17	I log cam angle, and I only command 2 degrees above 6k, but it does 'walk' to as much as 12 degrees. Once cam angle passes 5.9 degrees, the knock retard ramps up(happens consistently at about 6550), leading me to believe it's from the noise of the cam phaser not being able to overcome the dual valve springs. I've also turned vvt off and logged cam angle and it stays at 0 the whole time, but it still knocks. I've also heard of forms of torque management pulling timing and showing up as knock retard, but I can not confirm. Most of the torque tables end at 6600rpms, so it's something to think about. Last edited by Mavericka70; 06-11-2018 at 08:43 PM.

06-11-2018, 02:10 PM	#3
aka Reckless Drives: 2016 2SS Camaro Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Cumming, GA Posts: 541	Define "bolt-ons" Probably in the valve train though (harmonics)

06-11-2018, 04:59 PM	#4
Mavericka70 Drives: '17 1ss m6 Join Date: May 2018 Location: Arkansas Posts: 17	Mine does the same thing after a cam swap. I'm running LS7 lifters and my knock sensors are desensitized, but I get pretty consistent knock at 6550 or so. I tried adding/pulling timing and fuel and it's still there, leading me to believe that it's probably false knock.

06-11-2018, 09:24 PM	#7
Joel2702zzz Drives: My Dad's car is a '16 1SS 6MT Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Menifee CA Posts: 76	Additionally, there seems to be a drop in throttle at high rpm(6800+)the tps reading goes down eventually down to 40%, not sure what's causing this i'm pretty sure we're keeping the pedal to the metal the whole time. And by bolt on's I mean full exhaust/catless headers, MSD manifold, CAI,ported throttle body.

06-11-2018, 10:09 PM	#8
Juiced1 Account Suspended Drives: 2012 2SS CAMARO 45th Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: St. Charles, IL Posts: 18,663	That's a lot of RPM for the stock valve train especially with the DOD.

06-11-2018, 11:21 PM	#9
Joel2702zzz Drives: My Dad's car is a '16 1SS 6MT Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Menifee CA Posts: 76	Do manual cars have DOD?

06-12-2018, 01:00 AM	#10
Mavericka70 Drives: '17 1ss m6 Join Date: May 2018 Location: Arkansas Posts: 17	Manual cars have the dod lifters, but they're not activated in the tune. If the throttle is getting pulled, you need to log delivered torque and predicted torque. You may need to adjust your driver demand tables or your torque tables, if the torque demand is met, it will pull throttle to keep it there.

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