08-25-2021, 11:31 AM | #1 |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,763
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Centri runs cooler then PD...Myth?
So often we hear the Centri superchargers run cooler then Positive displacement units such as the Maggie 2650 or Whipple 2.9. Well I was able to do get some data logs from 2 cars that have different superchargers.
A friend of mine just purchased a 2016 2SS A8 that has a P1x stage 2 intercooler, LT4 fuel system, and New Era cat deletes. It makes about 9.5psi in the heat @ 6600rpm. It is still running 93 octane. My car is a 2016 SS A8 with a Whipple 2.9, 3.375 pulley making 9.5 psi @ 6600rpm in the heat, Fuel system, Rotofab big gulp, ported 95 mm tb, CA cat delete pipes, running E52. What I found is both show similar MAT at the start of the run. Whipple is slightly hotter, however by the top of 4th the P1x is hitting close to 160 degrees and pulling timing. The Whipple is around 129 and making full timing. Post pull the P1x does recover a bit faster, but it still ends up around 155-160 by the top of 4th and pulling timing regardless if it's the first pull or 3 pulls later. The Whipple still hasn't got hot enough to pull timing. It was about 5 degrees cooler(85-86) on this log vs the P1x(88-90) but that wouldn't make enough difference to skew the data much. Here are the logs: P1x SS Whipple SS Just to be clear I am not biased to my Whipple. I was actually impressed with how the P1x works on the SS. We will be installing a flex sensor and running some E on it soon. This P1x car was purchased from a member here on C6. I retuned it and we were taking logs to make sure it was good. This log posted above was before I touched the timing. It had 13 degrees in it and it was getting a .5-1 degree KR. So I pulled it back to 12 degrees and it went away. I didn't post that log because we didn't pull it all the way through 4th. Either way I just wanted to share some data. Folks often talk about IAT's this and that with these cars and the only thing that matters is MAT. That is what the ECU references when correcting spark vs air temp. Both cars are set to pull timing at 154 degree air temp and that is exactly what the P1x car does.
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2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA |
08-25-2021, 12:25 PM | #2 |
Drives: 2022 Lt1 A10 Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: clark, mo
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My 2650 SS was usually about 110 at the end of the track and my 2300 was over 150 and pulling timing. Those Iat's were on 90 degree days like we see a lot here in the midwest. The numbers you posted are pretty interesting. We were on the dyno a couple days ago with Billy's 16 SS and he just installed a P1-sc with the race intercooler and his Iat's were running about 100 to 110 and making 9.2 psi and over 600 rwhp. Not to bad.
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2022 Lt1 6.2 A10, Maggie 2300, THPSI Port Inj/10 rib, Rotofab, E, Nickey, SCOL, Griptech, RC Bandits, Hoosiers/MT 9.80@142.96 1.44 60ft, 6.34@112 707/669 RWHP/TRQ. 16SS Maggie 2650 9.41@147 1.35 60ft, 5.99@119. 16 C7 A8 10.90@128 Bolt on stuff
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08-25-2021, 12:40 PM | #3 |
Drives: 1999 Camaro SS M6 - SBE LS1 Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,166
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Honestly would like to see the results on the same fuel. The other concern with PDs is heat soaking sitting on the top of the engine, especially on repeated runs. That's a lot more metal mass sitting on the heat source, than a Centri mounted to a bracket.
Good info either way, can you clarify MAT and which sensors the computer uses to make the calculation?
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1999 Camaro SS 6M - SBE LS1
1963 Corvette GrandSport - ZZ502 4M 2017 Denali 1500 6.2 2017 Yukon Denali 6.2 |
08-25-2021, 12:50 PM | #4 |
Drives: 2022 Lt1 A10 Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: clark, mo
Posts: 8,857
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My PD Magnuson was not an issue with IATs. I ran VP Ms 109 and with the DI motors fuel doesn't help as much as it would with a port injected LS motor as far as a cooling effect. Thats why some spray Meth/Water to help the cooling on the DIs.
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2022 Lt1 6.2 A10, Maggie 2300, THPSI Port Inj/10 rib, Rotofab, E, Nickey, SCOL, Griptech, RC Bandits, Hoosiers/MT 9.80@142.96 1.44 60ft, 6.34@112 707/669 RWHP/TRQ. 16SS Maggie 2650 9.41@147 1.35 60ft, 5.99@119. 16 C7 A8 10.90@128 Bolt on stuff
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08-25-2021, 01:26 PM | #5 | |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,763
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Quote:
The runs on both cars are street driving out in the heat. Both cars were driven for a length of time before runs were made. P1x was pulling timing on first pull. My Whipple has never pulled timing due to high MAT ever...I have done plenty of back to back pulls.
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2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA |
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08-25-2021, 01:45 PM | #6 |
Drives: 17 SS a8 Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: omaha
Posts: 1,678
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The compressor map would make a difference. One could be spent and at 50% eff while the other is at it’s ideal point and be at 78% eff. That would be an 70deg difference at just 10psi.
And of course the intercooler differences.
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dropped a valve in the 6.2. now running a drop in rods and piston 5.3
best et 5.83@121 with the 5.3 http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465472 |
08-25-2021, 01:52 PM | #7 |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,763
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Yes but we are dealing with 2 pretty basic setups. Neither are being spun hard very hard. My Whipple has no cooling mods, The P1x has the stage 2 intercooler.
Point was I see people all the time(mainly on Social Media) recommending a P1 over a Maggie or Whipple because they "heat soak" less and have "lower IAT". Now I am sure something like a D1x or F1a would be drastically different far as cooling but that is besides the point.
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2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA |
08-25-2021, 02:33 PM | #8 | |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,763
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Quote:
__________________
2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA |
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08-25-2021, 02:37 PM | #9 |
Petro-sexual
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That's super interesting. I see a lot of comments, like you already said, and seeing what you have here sheds some light. VERY interesting.
It'd also be interesting to see how they compare just put'ting down the freeway, same speed, no load. I know I see my MAT/IAT/IAT2s run high, because there's not much air demand under those conditions, but they start falling as soon as there's load and speed. I don't know if this is asking too much, and it's not like I'm going to swap anyways, but it'd just be interesting to see is all. Thanks for sharing.
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08-25-2021, 03:21 PM | #10 | |
Drives: 1999 Camaro SS M6 - SBE LS1 Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,166
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Quote:
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1999 Camaro SS 6M - SBE LS1
1963 Corvette GrandSport - ZZ502 4M 2017 Denali 1500 6.2 2017 Yukon Denali 6.2 |
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08-25-2021, 04:01 PM | #11 | |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,763
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Quote:
One thing to note about PD stuff is making sure the IC cooling system is bleed properly so there is no air. That makes a huge difference on air temps. I believe on the SS IAT/Baro/ECT. The IAT sensor is normally broke out of the MAF and located on the lower manifold of the supercharger with PD stuff. I am not sure where it's placed on a Centri kit. I'll have to look and the P1x setup.
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2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA |
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08-25-2021, 06:45 PM | #12 |
Drives: 2017 Camaro 2SS A8 Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Petersham MA
Posts: 4,700
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Great info as always King. Thanks for sharing.
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2017 Chevy Camaro 2SS A8 Whipple 3.0, Mast Black Label heads, Fore triple in-tank pumps, 112mm TB, LPE +52% injectors, LPE BB HPFP, 15” conversion 1059 WHP/944 WTQ, 9.48@150
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08-26-2021, 06:17 AM | #13 |
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 1,692
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Looks like you started your Whipple run at a lower ECT than the Procharger run (by 21º). Would suggest running the Procharger car at lower temps like that too, for a resulting lower MAT. I had a Paxton before, and definitely when the car was running hotter, the MAT was higher.
As far as heat, I have noticed that neither the centri nor the PD/roots blowers really like it. Been at the strip with my Paxton and talked to a guy with a modded Hellcat who told me that his car was 8mph down (it was hot that day). And from what another Hellcat owner has told me, the intercooling on the Hellcat is pretty decent. |
08-26-2021, 07:49 AM | #14 | |
Drives: 1999 Camaro SS M6 - SBE LS1 Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,166
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Quote:
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1999 Camaro SS 6M - SBE LS1
1963 Corvette GrandSport - ZZ502 4M 2017 Denali 1500 6.2 2017 Yukon Denali 6.2 |
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