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Old 08-25-2021, 11:31 AM   #1
KingLT1


 
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Centri runs cooler then PD...Myth?

So often we hear the Centri superchargers run cooler then Positive displacement units such as the Maggie 2650 or Whipple 2.9. Well I was able to do get some data logs from 2 cars that have different superchargers.

A friend of mine just purchased a 2016 2SS A8 that has a P1x stage 2 intercooler, LT4 fuel system, and New Era cat deletes. It makes about 9.5psi in the heat @ 6600rpm. It is still running 93 octane.

My car is a 2016 SS A8 with a Whipple 2.9, 3.375 pulley making 9.5 psi @ 6600rpm in the heat, Fuel system, Rotofab big gulp, ported 95 mm tb, CA cat delete pipes, running E52.

What I found is both show similar MAT at the start of the run. Whipple is slightly hotter, however by the top of 4th the P1x is hitting close to 160 degrees and pulling timing. The Whipple is around 129 and making full timing. Post pull the P1x does recover a bit faster, but it still ends up around 155-160 by the top of 4th and pulling timing regardless if it's the first pull or 3 pulls later. The Whipple still hasn't got hot enough to pull timing. It was about 5 degrees cooler(85-86) on this log vs the P1x(88-90) but that wouldn't make enough difference to skew the data much.

Here are the logs:

P1x SS





Whipple SS






Just to be clear I am not biased to my Whipple. I was actually impressed with how the P1x works on the SS. We will be installing a flex sensor and running some E on it soon. This P1x car was purchased from a member here on C6. I retuned it and we were taking logs to make sure it was good. This log posted above was before I touched the timing. It had 13 degrees in it and it was getting a .5-1 degree KR. So I pulled it back to 12 degrees and it went away. I didn't post that log because we didn't pull it all the way through 4th.

Either way I just wanted to share some data. Folks often talk about IAT's this and that with these cars and the only thing that matters is MAT. That is what the ECU references when correcting spark vs air temp. Both cars are set to pull timing at 154 degree air temp and that is exactly what the P1x car does.
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Old 08-25-2021, 12:25 PM   #2
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My 2650 SS was usually about 110 at the end of the track and my 2300 was over 150 and pulling timing. Those Iat's were on 90 degree days like we see a lot here in the midwest. The numbers you posted are pretty interesting. We were on the dyno a couple days ago with Billy's 16 SS and he just installed a P1-sc with the race intercooler and his Iat's were running about 100 to 110 and making 9.2 psi and over 600 rwhp. Not to bad.
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Old 08-25-2021, 12:40 PM   #3
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Honestly would like to see the results on the same fuel. The other concern with PDs is heat soaking sitting on the top of the engine, especially on repeated runs. That's a lot more metal mass sitting on the heat source, than a Centri mounted to a bracket.

Good info either way, can you clarify MAT and which sensors the computer uses to make the calculation?
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Old 08-25-2021, 12:50 PM   #4
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My PD Magnuson was not an issue with IATs. I ran VP Ms 109 and with the DI motors fuel doesn't help as much as it would with a port injected LS motor as far as a cooling effect. Thats why some spray Meth/Water to help the cooling on the DIs.
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Old 08-25-2021, 01:26 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-99SS View Post
Honestly would like to see the results on the same fuel. The other concern with PDs is heat soaking sitting on the top of the engine, especially on repeated runs. That's a lot more metal mass sitting on the heat source, than a Centri mounted to a bracket.

Good info either way, can you clarify MAT and which sensors the computer uses to make the calculation?
Fuel type has no impact on MAT with DI motors.

The runs on both cars are street driving out in the heat. Both cars were driven for a length of time before runs were made.

P1x was pulling timing on first pull. My Whipple has never pulled timing due to high MAT ever...I have done plenty of back to back pulls.
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Old 08-25-2021, 01:45 PM   #6
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The compressor map would make a difference. One could be spent and at 50% eff while the other is at it’s ideal point and be at 78% eff. That would be an 70deg difference at just 10psi.

And of course the intercooler differences.
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Old 08-25-2021, 01:52 PM   #7
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Yes but we are dealing with 2 pretty basic setups. Neither are being spun hard very hard. My Whipple has no cooling mods, The P1x has the stage 2 intercooler.

Point was I see people all the time(mainly on Social Media) recommending a P1 over a Maggie or Whipple because they "heat soak" less and have "lower IAT".

Now I am sure something like a D1x or F1a would be drastically different far as cooling but that is besides the point.
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Old 08-25-2021, 02:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laynlo15 View Post
My 2650 SS was usually about 110 at the end of the track and my 2300 was over 150 and pulling timing. Those Iat's were on 90 degree days like we see a lot here in the midwest. The numbers you posted are pretty interesting. We were on the dyno a couple days ago with Billy's 16 SS and he just installed a P1-sc with the race intercooler and his Iat's were running about 100 to 110 and making 9.2 psi and over 600 rwhp. Not to bad.
If the temps on the P1sc were only 110 after a pull then you are looking at the wrong IAT data.
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Old 08-25-2021, 02:37 PM   #9
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That's super interesting. I see a lot of comments, like you already said, and seeing what you have here sheds some light. VERY interesting.

It'd also be interesting to see how they compare just put'ting down the freeway, same speed, no load. I know I see my MAT/IAT/IAT2s run high, because there's not much air demand under those conditions, but they start falling as soon as there's load and speed. I don't know if this is asking too much, and it's not like I'm going to swap anyways, but it'd just be interesting to see is all.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 08-25-2021, 03:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingLT1 View Post
Fuel type has no impact on MAT with DI motors.

The runs on both cars are street driving out in the heat. Both cars were driven for a length of time before runs were made.

P1x was pulling timing on first pull. My Whipple has never pulled timing due to high MAT ever...I have done plenty of back to back pulls.
What sensors are used to calculate MAT?
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Old 08-25-2021, 04:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
That's super interesting. I see a lot of comments, like you already said, and seeing what you have here sheds some light. VERY interesting.

It'd also be interesting to see how they compare just put'ting down the freeway, same speed, no load. I know I see my MAT/IAT/IAT2s run high, because there's not much air demand under those conditions, but they start falling as soon as there's load and speed. I don't know if this is asking too much, and it's not like I'm going to swap anyways, but it'd just be interesting to see is all.

Thanks for sharing.
Cruising down the hwy the P1x was showing about 10-15 degrees cooler. 110 vs 120-125 on a hot humid day. Normally around here when the temp hits 85-90 it's super humid. Heat index can easily be 10-15 degrees above actual. The P1x seems to cool down faster as well. My guess is the P1x is simply spinning a lot harder as Parish mentioned even with the out of the box pulley compared to the Whipple pullied down 1 size. So the P1x is pretty much is at it's limits @ 9.5psi on a hot day without some meth to cool the charge. The way everybody talks on the net I was expecting the P1x to crush my Whipple on temps but that wasn't the case...not even close.

One thing to note about PD stuff is making sure the IC cooling system is bleed properly so there is no air. That makes a huge difference on air temps.




Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-99SS View Post
What sensors are used to calculate MAT?
I believe on the SS IAT/Baro/ECT. The IAT sensor is normally broke out of the MAF and located on the lower manifold of the supercharger with PD stuff. I am not sure where it's placed on a Centri kit. I'll have to look and the P1x setup.
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Old 08-25-2021, 06:45 PM   #12
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Great info as always King. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 08-26-2021, 06:17 AM   #13
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Looks like you started your Whipple run at a lower ECT than the Procharger run (by 21º). Would suggest running the Procharger car at lower temps like that too, for a resulting lower MAT. I had a Paxton before, and definitely when the car was running hotter, the MAT was higher.

As far as heat, I have noticed that neither the centri nor the PD/roots blowers really like it. Been at the strip with my Paxton and talked to a guy with a modded Hellcat who told me that his car was 8mph down (it was hot that day). And from what another Hellcat owner has told me, the intercooling on the Hellcat is pretty decent.
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Old 08-26-2021, 07:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingLT1 View Post
Cruising down the hwy the P1x was showing about 10-15 degrees cooler. 110 vs 120-125 on a hot humid day. Normally around here when the temp hits 85-90 it's super humid. Heat index can easily be 10-15 degrees above actual. The P1x seems to cool down faster as well. My guess is the P1x is simply spinning a lot harder as Parish mentioned even with the out of the box pulley compared to the Whipple pullied down 1 size. So the P1x is pretty much is at it's limits @ 9.5psi on a hot day without some meth to cool the charge. The way everybody talks on the net I was expecting the P1x to crush my Whipple on temps but that wasn't the case...not even close.

One thing to note about PD stuff is making sure the IC cooling system is bleed properly so there is no air. That makes a huge difference on air temps.

I believe on the SS IAT/Baro/ECT. The IAT sensor is normally broke out of the MAF and located on the lower manifold of the supercharger with PD stuff. I am not sure where it's placed on a Centri kit. I'll have to look and the P1x setup.
Thanks for the info
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