[Gunkk]

Originally Posted by JG853

Take a listen to what Jim Mero says himself - If he could change one thing on the C7 ZR1 what would it be? Not aero, not ME design, not a DCT, etc... He said...

"The were three things I woulda changed. The first was tires, the second is tires, and the third woulda been tires."

quoted verbatim from the audio.


Nice writeup. Good podcast too.

[cvp33]

Still lost with 85 more ponies and 255 more torque. Watch what the new C8 ZR1 does with a twin turbo flat plane crank V8. I predict 800hp and 600tq and a proper azz-beating for nearly every car on the list. The McLaren will be tough though.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by cvp33

Also telling is that Randy Probst ran a faster time in the M/E C8Z and GT3 than he did in the Z06 and ZR1. I’ll take those as way more qualitative from a data perspective than one hero lap supposedly run by Mero that was never base lined against other cars same day, same track etc.

Sorry fellas, F/E is less capable, as evidenced by your own comments and the slower ZR1 time while holding an 85hp and 255tq advantage. Why did it lose with so much more power? That’s right, inferior chassis incapable of putting that horsepower and torque advantage to use.

Maybe it was the tires? LOL

Tires are absolutely the biggest factor in fast laps. For a guy who earlier eluded to being experienced on track, you really should know better. ....with all due respect of course. To imply otherwise, really hurts credibility. Tires transform the car allowing you to get on the gas earlier, carry more lateral G, brake deeper, and accelerate quicker. On track, a C8 Z06 is not beating a Cup 2R equipped C7 ZR1.... period. Not helping the ME case is the fact that the Z51 equipped C8 Stingray doesn't even beat a C7GS which has less horsepower. In fact the C8 Stingray is ill handling unless you throw obscene amounts of camber at it. This idea that a ME is so much better than a FE is so narrow minded and completely ignores its inherent disadvantages while only highlighting its benefits.

I would suspect that the innovative design of the C8 Z06 LT6 has more to do with the C8 Z's lap times than merely the location of it. -- if only they'd stop grenading, but that's a whole other topic for another day.

While it is true that "people will defend what they can afford" in some cases as you put it, I don't think that is the case here. This forum has plenty of people who are not only well off, but also race, and have logged thousands of laps.

[Revalot]

[QUOTE=cvp33;11321269]Sometimes we defend what we can afford.

There's the comment I knew was hoping to see,

When you look at the technology of serious sportbikes on a road race course I'm talking GSXR-750, 1000, BMW 1000R, ZX10,
there comes a point that technology has reached it's upper limits, The alpha chassis in any GM car ZR1, Z06, ZL1/1LE, Z28, now the alpha chassis , my point was no matter what you have the ZLE made a undeniable advancement.

Here is the only way there can be a giant leap on track, something that weighs 1500 to 2300 pounds all electric go cart, and can push the human body to its limit on G-force, but the price would be so crazy, the guys that defend what they can afford, couldn't afford it, and if you could, there would haft to be a serious doctor examination, and people would still have issues with G-force and maybe black out's. That's also why a 3 second funny car can't go around a track, to many G's in a straight line.

Here's how the history book will look for GM technology marvel's
C6 Z06
C6ZR1
Gen 5 Z28
Gen 6 ZL1/1LE
C7 Z06 honorable mention due to 1st supercharged Z06
C7ZR1 most ever for it's time 755 hp

C7 Z06 heating was it's down fall, no matter how you look at it, but hey by 100k car, that has a oil/transmission cooler next to the manifold/headers that was a disaster before it came off the assembly line. And why put a band-aid on a 100k car, get a 7 speed and say the manual was great, the lid on the supercharger was a issue also. But I don't know cars

The C8 stingray, Z06 will be in the history books, 1st a
GM 1st mid-engine, and C8Z06 670 hp, anytime a corvette comes out it has to go down as the best current sports car for GM at that moment period. The old guys with white tennis shoes would be furious that any car below a corvette was capable of the same performance or even close is a abomination.
And by the way a 800 hp ZR1 ? Maybe but I'm not a dodge fan (GM will not throw hp around), I imagine GM will not give a ZR1 C8 a 130 hp increase over a C8 Z06 probably 50 hp more, 720 hp, they haft to keep everyone coming back.

Me I'm good for now, but I rode next to a GT3RS(or any turbocharged porsche similar body)for 10-15 minutes in Houston a few months back in my truck, I'm thinking one day that might be my next move, something about that 6 cylinder made me feel with the sound and all.
But who knows, If I get it, it might be the only car I can afford, and it might be one of the best cars to have. At 6'4 280 I can't fit a Corvette very well, even if I could fit a C7, I wouldn't buy a Z06, And a ZR1 C7 would be like getting in a match box.

[Gunkk]

Originally Posted by Revalot

... a GT3RS(or any turbocharged porsche similar body) ... If I get it, it might be the only car I can afford...

If you cannot afford two Porsches, then you cannot afford one Porsche.

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by cvp33

Sometimes we defend what we can afford. Give me an underpowered M/E all day long. The Mero comment makes it even more obvious and refutes what others have said. The magazine drivers felt more planted at the limit in a M/E car and thus ran a faster time in the C8Z vs the ZR1. Also telling is that Randy Probst ran a faster time in the M/E C8Z and GT3 than he did in the Z06 and ZR1. I’ll take those as way more qualitative from a data perspective than one hero lap supposedly run by Mero that was never base lined against other cars same day, same track etc. Sorry fellas, F/E is less capable, as evidenced by your own comments and the slower ZR1 time while holding an 85hp and 255tq advantage. Why did it lose with so much more power? That’s right, inferior chassis incapable of putting that horsepower and torque advantage to use. Maybe it was the tires? LOL

THIS IS REALITY!

[Bosse'sBoss]

In order of my preference based on their performance:

1. Corvette C8 Z06

2. 6th gen Camaro ZL1

3. Corvette C7 Grand Sport (Z07)

4. 6th gen Camaro SS1LE

5. 6th gen Camaro SS

[JG853]

I own the cars you are referencing. Unlike you, I do not drink the marketing Kool-Aid (Like others have also told you on this thread). @NG329 has provided you excellent data. You do not want to believe anything we are telling you which are facts.

So using your analogy that tires make zero difference, that the M/E platform is superior in everyway even with less power (On any road course), why are all of the LL cars (Driven by magazine writers) not all at the top of the list and faster than any Front Mid Engine even if they are vastly underpowered?

Furthermore - How can you compare times on the LL given that these cars are run separate years (Per your analogy)? Did you also know that VIR was repaved? What does that do to the times of cars prior to the repave?

Finally - Let's use McLaren...Christian Gebhardt ran the McLaren 720s at The Ring two separate times and the car was 7:08 and 7:14... Do you think if McLaren used a Cup2R tire that it would have drastically helped at the Ring like Porsche or Mercedes? At VIR - Do you think a C8 Z06 is faster around a road course than a McLaren 720s? In the Lightning Lap it ran slower (Albeit on lesser tires like the C7 ZR1). You think on equal tires the 720S will be faster than a C8 Z06? (Now, let's give both the C7 ZR1 and McLaren 720s Carbon Fiber wheels too and run them again).

My final point is Tires are a consumable. They make a huge difference as has been pointed out to you thoughout this thread. At a racetrack, you will be on equal tires regardless of platform.

Originally Posted by cvp33

Sometimes we defend what we can afford.

Give me an underpowered M/E all day long. The Mero comment makes it even more obvious and refutes what others have said. The magazine drivers felt more planted at the limit in a M/E car and thus ran a faster time in the C8Z vs the ZR1. Also telling is that Randy Probst ran a faster time in the M/E C8Z and GT3 than he did in the Z06 and ZR1. I’ll take those as way more qualitative from a data perspective than one hero lap supposedly run by Mero that was never base lined against other cars same day, same track etc.

Sorry fellas, F/E is less capable, as evidenced by your own comments and the slower ZR1 time while holding an 85hp and 255tq advantage. Why did it lose with so much more power? That’s right, inferior chassis incapable of putting that horsepower and torque advantage to use.

Maybe it was the tires? LOL

[arpad_m]

These front engine, mid engine discussions are so futile. Their performance envelopes could very well look like this "amazing quality rendering" from yours truly, with a massive overlapping area. Everyone is typically talking about and comparing specific points within these envelopes, coming up with different conclusions, with no end in sight.

Also there is the ownership bias that is hard to set aside, I know from personal experience (e.g. even though I know that objectively a ZL1 is better, I often feel my 2SS is the best Camaro, but it works vice versa as well, many ZL1 owners can't imagine any Camaro out there, modded or not, can hold a candle to their just because they own the top trim).

[cvp33]

My Dad worked for GM for 35 years and I almost ended up there as part of GMI’s engineering training. I also agree with the earlier statement that many on here have only owned /driven Camaros as performance cars and think they are the best. They are good, really good. But not the best. Possibly best at a price, but not the best.

I’ve owned 2 Z06’s, 2 ZL1’s and will be ordering a new Z06 because as was shared earlier I do like winning. As for those that keep talking about and for Mero (the former ride and handling engineer for GM). I was lucky enough to meet Jim. He’s an incredible driver and engineer and he was GREAT for GM. We car enthusiasts are lucky that Jim chose to work for GM vs. Ford. I won’t speak for Jim……I’ll let his words speak for themselves.

GMauthority

One thing Mero knows for sure, though, is that the C8 will be better than the C7 – even if he believes the front-rear layout of the old car was still competitive performance-wise.

“In my mind, every generation of Corvette was better than the generation before, and the C8 will be no different,” he said.

Jim Mero’s comments re: a C8Z run at the ring

[Revalot]

Originally Posted by Gunkk

If you cannot afford two Porsches, then you cannot afford one Porsche.

Some of the statements were( Read the statement above my post)sarcastic, I'm sure people have told other people they couldn't afford a ZL1, Z06, ZR1 or a C8 Z06, I loved people like this. The look on there faces is priceless when you pull up. I'm sure some can type on the keyboard going around the track.

[JG853]

I know Jim. He did not mince words on his podcast that I posted earlier in this thread. He said that if GM would have developed tires for the C7 ZR1 it would have significantly improved it's performance. Jim's segmented time at the ring was 6:53X, his obstructed lap time (No warm up for tires, etc.) was 7:03X for the C7 ZR1 on tires that were developed in 2013! The Cup2R has proven on other cars to make a 12+ second difference at The Ring.. thus, those same tires on a C7 Z06 would make it a 7:00 Ring time (Might be even sub 7:00). At VIR, the Cup2R tires have proven to be worth approximately 4 seconds faster. Thus, the Cup2R tires previously were called cheater tires (Before GM stated using them on a C8 Z06 Z07)..

Furthermore, you are taking part of his quote that he posted below (Cherry picking the end part of what he said). I believe that was in reference to his comments on the C8 Mid Engine Platform - That being, he had stated that the FME platform was not completely maxed out... He then clarified that statement further with additional comments, some of which you included in the quote below.

The Technology advancements since 2018 have been astounding. That includes materials as well. As noted below, the C8 Platform contains a number of advancements - DCT, ME, Aero, Launch Control, etc. and the C8 Z06 a high revving engine, Cup2R tires, Carbon Fiber wheels, advanced aero, etc.. Where your analogy continues to fall short is that tires are consumables. The C8 Platform has not beaten the C7 ZR1 time at VIR (Even with much better tires and Carbon Fiber wheels). Will Famer has shown that the C8 Z06 and C7 Z06 are basically equal in drag times ET and MPH in the quarter mile. As others have mentioned, the C8 Z51 has not bested the time of a C7 Grand Sport either, and the C8 Z51 has more HP and Torque, ME Platform, advanced aero, better launch control and technology. Randy P lapped .1 seconds faster at Big Willow recently in a C8 Z06 Z07 than his previous time in a C7 Z06 Z07. Now think of all of the advancements that the C8 Platform has over a C7 or ZL1... How could this happen?

Since we are taking about Camaro's I still love the Zl1 and Zl1 1Le. Just awesome cars for what they are. With that said, how can this happen -

@NG329 has posted a number of facts regarding ME vs FE vs RE platforms. He notes advantages and disadvantages. You seem to ignore all of this data and you never answered my questions to you in my last thread either.

Originally Posted by cvp33

My Dad worked for GM for 35 years and I almost ended up there as part of GMI’s engineering training. I also agree with the earlier statement that many on here have only owned /driven Camaros as performance cars and think they are the best. They are good, really good. But not the best. Possibly best at a price, but not the best.

I’ve owned 2 Z06’s, 2 ZL1’s and will be ordering a new Z06 because as was shared earlier I do like winning. As for those that keep talking about and for Mero (the former ride and handling engineer for GM). I was lucky enough to meet Jim. He’s an incredible driver and engineer and he was GREAT for GM. We car enthusiasts are lucky that Jim chose to work for GM vs. Ford. I won’t speak for Jim……I’ll let his words speak for themselves.

GMauthority

One thing Mero knows for sure, though, is that the C8 will be better than the C7 – even if he believes the front-rear layout of the old car was still competitive performance-wise.

“In my mind, every generation of Corvette was better than the generation before, and the C8 will be no different,” he said.

Jim Mero’s comments re: a C8Z run at the ring

[cvp33]

Again I agree. Jim said the C8Z will be faster than the ZO6 the ZLE and could in fact be the first GM car to break 7:00 at the ‘ring. I believe him as he was the Ride and Handling engineer for the Corvette. He knew the limitations of F/E and most know the fact that the C7Z was actually supposed to be M/E had it not been for the cash crisis at GM. GM kept up with Porsche which was amazing, more amazing is they could’ve leap frogged them.

[NG329]

To highlight the importance of tires, getting back to my point on that mcLaren from early.

Randy Pobst ran a 1:34.5 over a decade ago on P Zeros which were OEM.



Turn in Track Out ran a 1:30 with them on Goodyear Supercar 3Rs and he's not a pro racer. If you pull out your stopwatch in this vid he's running 1:32s


in this vid with Speed Phenom at 1:53-2:00 TurnInTrackOut says he ran a 1:30 with the MP412c on Supercar 3Rs. That's also faster than Randy P's time in a McLaren P1 on lesser tires.



If this doesn't highlight the importance of tires I don't know what will. Now imagine Randy Pobst running the same MP412c on modern Cup2R hero tires. He'd be in the 1:20s!