[Capricio]

Originally Posted by xgnxs

By smaller do you mean smaller displacement or smaller physically? Because the OHV pushrod engines are larger in displacement and physically smaller than DOHC engines.

Sacrificing simplicity and displacement/torque for complexity and fuel efficiency by means of FI or DOHC or both. Basically the end of cam-in-block V8s.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by BigRedViking

Jeffro 19 I see you had an 02' Z28 manual. What was the best mpg you achieved? My dad had a 98' Z28 manual that he claimed could get 30+ mpg highway.

I too had a Z28 manual I drove mostly stock for 90K miles. I never saw 30 MPG. 25 was about the best number I saw on long trips. This is about the same as my 1LE which is about 500 pounds heavier and has more than double the HP. Things are improving. In the 1LE if I am on a flat road in 6th at 50 MPH with a little care I can maintain 30+ MPG for a long time. But that is not real world.

In the future I think V8s will become rare. The rumor at Ford is the V8 is on notice. So this future CA8 will have a standard NA 4 with a turbo optional. The TT V6 will be the big gun. Here Chevy/GM needs to improve the harmonics and experience of the engine to match the Germans. A six cylinder can be a very exciting engine.

I like the CA6 better than the 5th gen in looks. And it looks way better to me than the Stingray. The Stingray is visually exciting, but I think the insect look will become dated over time. To me, while the 5-6 gens do give a nod (less on the CA6) to the past, they will still look good in 20 years. Some design shapes may have been used before, but can be timeless. Just like music where we enjoy classical rift variations as new stuff.

And if I have read the info right Chevy has tweaked the visibility a bit to improve it. It is fine with me that some people don't mind the limited visibility and can effectively work around it. But for me it is a drag. I want to see out of my car. I enjoy driving and the cave-like (and dreary) interior of the 5th Gen takes away from that enjoyment. So Chevy please improve this on the CA7.

I think we can expect the manual to be dead by the CA7. I would love a real DCT where my car could be an automatic for others to drive in my family. Yes, it does take away from some of the the control, but there are times whan that gets old. If you only drive your car on weekends then manuals are fine, but as an every day transmission, very few want this. Doc, your GT analogy is right on target. A GT will have a DCT or a true auto. The GT can do everything, go fast and go slow enjoyably.

I am hoping the CA6 gets rid of the big car 5th gen feel. Looking forward to sit in one. Along with the technology that makes a car feel light, it's the impression from the drivers seat and the dimensions around you help with that feeling. The Stingray fells cramped to me, and to underline that tall/big people do not fit. The 5tg gen on the other hand seems the size of an old muscle car from the drivers seat. Not a lithe GT car.

I am looking forward to all of the new versions of the Pony/Muscle/GT cars, not just the one from GM.

[mt3130]

Originally Posted by wakespeak

Who is the model or typical buyer for the Gen7? This is Chevy's big problem IMO. Are they Millenials, GenXers, GenY...or younger baby boomers still wanting to have some fun?

Buyer A (me):
I liked the restrained interior, old style but perfected small block V-8, track capable handling combined with show car looks of the Gen5. Very refreshing compared to the gizmo filled self driving, automated everything trends in other cars.

The styling should be very compelling and timeless. Not a corporate "face" or mainstreamed watered down look. I don't think its a choice between retro or current; its simply unique. I am not a Miata buyer, but Mazda did a nice job of creating a very timeless look for the 2016 car.

I would like the Gen7 to follow those roots again like Mazda did with the Miata. Dodge has hinted that the Barracuda might be a product in this style.

Technology will mean (restrained) engineering sophistication.

Buyer B:

The Gen7 will be more like a Nissan GTR. Flip a switch and computers change the personality of the car via computer controlled shocks, engine, transmission, brakes, and mood lighting.

The engine will be whatever is deemed technically state of the art at the time, so probably turbo V6 and/or hybrid. The average age of the buyer will be in the 20s-30s.

Styling will be futuristic. Technology will mean driver adjustable everything, modes for this and that style of driving, HUDs, etc.

Whatever the buyer type turns out to be, I predict that car infotainment will mean less and less. Your phone already does everything - it just needs a port on the car. Base cars will have completely electronic displays for speed and so on.

Emission requirements will dictate the powertrains as much as CAFE. So the Gen7 would need a new small block V-8, that is likely overhead cam, with a small bore, longer stroke for emissions requirements. Yes Ford is doing that. I don't think the Gen7 will have any electric powertrains. Gen8 maybe.

If the new small block doesn't happen, then we'll have the NA and turbo V-6's. That's not all bad, particularly if the chassis continues to drop in size, but I will be glad if my Gen5 is still in the garage.

I'm a combination of your two example buyers. I love the tried and true small block V8, agree that the Camaro should have a unique design, and want engineering sophistication.

However, I believe that the design needs to move forward, and improving known issues should be a priority, even if that requires going against the heritage of the car. Poor visibility and the trunk opening should have been addressed since the car is new from the ground up.

I do like the idea of electronic suspension, because it puts me in control. If I want a softer suspension, I can; if I want something firmer, I can. I generally like firmer suspensions, but I don't always want something bone jarringly firm when I drive, especially when I have others with me or when I am driving on rougher roads.

I think the new interior is overstyled, but as long as its quality, then I'm ok with it. I also like the concept of using the head unit as a mirroring device for your phone, enough so that I turned to the aftermarket to set it up in my current car. I will also never own a car that requires me to take the keys out of my pocket to operate it again. I have also grown really attached to having a mirror that has buttons for my community gate and garage door built in. Every time I get in my fiancee's car and see the two openers hanging from her visor, it bothers me.

[xgnxs]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Sacrificing simplicity and displacement/torque for complexity and fuel efficiency by means of FI or DOHC or both. Basically the end of cam-in-block V8s.

I'm not sure why you want increased complexity but as far as fuel economy, comparing the 2015 mustang GT to the 2015 camaro SS (both with manual transmissions), the GT gets 15 city, 25 highway, 19 combined. The SS gets 16 city, 24 highway, 19 combined. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....35218&id=35661

I'm not seeing any benefit to changing to a DOHC design. Phyiscally larger, increased complexity, less displacement, less torque, with the same fuel economy.

[Jeb114]

GM's biggest problem is to stay solvent by 2025. The recent negotiations with the UAW might hurt GM, the recent recalls did. They are carrying way to much unsold stock. There overseas divisions are not doing well at all. Cafe' is not the only problem they have. I think they were totally unprepared for the 6th rollout and I think it is because of R&D capital. In response to the tread title I think GM has to look for profit first and build cars for the masses not the select few!! That's why the 4 cyl returned. and they have to reign in the prices. Dealers do not want cars they can't sell. (ie the Z/28)

[JR 1]

Presenting the 7th gen Camaro!!!

- Great visibility all around!
- Styling free of gimmicks!
- Lightweight and efficient!
- Complete break with traditional Camaro styling!
- Finally a usable back seat!

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

[Treefrog]

Originally Posted by Doc

Speaking for myself (and everyone is invited to chip in to this conversation) I would like to see increased outward visibility for the driver and all passengers; no more high sill sides with bunker-view cabins. C-pillar shapes need to improve driver visibility as much as possible; new stronger, light-weight materials can make this possible. Reduce unsprung weight as much as possible; put the money into those areas instead of gimmicky styling. I know none of that shows as it’s all under the skin but it matters. Performance matters.

I disagree and really have no problem seeing out my car.. I enjoy the way the side windows are.. They help make the 'feel' of the ride.. 8)

[Doc]

I agree with the idea of breaking down who the buyer(s) is/are and developing a strategy to make GM (or at least Chevrolet) remain solvent. Based on the sales response to the Camaro I believe it would be a good move on GM's part to come out with an entry-level performance car that would make it easier for new, younger buyers to join in on the fun. $25k+ isn't it, with the V8 models starting at around $35k+.

It may be time to add a smaller brother to the Camaro to the performance line-up. Perhaps revive the Corvair name? A decent, 4 passenger entry-level pony car that starts at around $16k with minimum to no frills. Maybe start with elements from the Sonic or Cruze and make it a fun car. It doesn't have to be high-performance; that's what the Camaro is for. Give it the pony car look of long hood short rear deck, or maybe even do the opposite. Drop the transverse mounted front-wheel engine set-up into the back so it's a quasi-mid/rear engine layout, and have fun with the entire front of the car so it's somewhat true to the Corvair heritage. A clean, decent interior; doesn't have to be fancy. Minimum amount of electronic gizmos; basic stereo with bluetooth. Keep the price down but make it in such a way that it's easy for the owner to modify and upgrade as they choose after purchase. People love to customize and mod their cars, and this would open up that world to the new, younger generations. Something like that would be very attractive (and affordable) I think to the new, young buyer and would also make great graduation gifts. This would open up the same market the original pony cars tapped into back in the day.

If GM put some development money and design effort into a fun shape that has good aerodynamics (including underbody aero) to improve mpg, and 17" or 18" light-weight wheels...I think something like that would sell very well. This would make a great "first car" or a fun daily driver for those looking for something less expensive but sporty. 29 mpg around town and 39 mpg on the highway...possibly even better with good aero...this would be a sales winner. And just as important as immediate sales, this refreshes the customer base with new generations of customers which is something GM needs if they want to survive in the future.

As for the Camaro 7th gen...rather than come up with a concept sketch then try and cram everything into that body style, perhaps they should start with the inside requirements. Solve that then build a skin on top of and around it. Reasonable seating for 4 with reasonable access to the seats. Decent headroom; even if the driver is wearing a helmet. Good visibility; especially for the driver. Good solution for drink/cup holders without blocking air vents or interfering with manual shifting. Reasonable trunk access for things like a bag or two of golf clubs. I'm using the word "reasonable" here because we're not looking for a van; this is a performance GT after all.

Start with those requirements then build a great body shape on top of and around it. I realize that won't be easy, but anything that's really worth doing usually isn't. I have absolutely no doubt the Camaro team has the talent and skill to accomplish this.

Good conversation so far!

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by xgnxs

I'm not sure why you want increased complexity but as far as fuel economy, comparing the 2015 mustang GT to the 2015 camaro SS (both with manual transmissions), the GT gets 15 city, 25 highway, 19 combined. The SS gets 16 city, 24 highway, 19 combined. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....35218&id=35661

I'm not seeing any benefit to changing to a DOHC design. Phyiscally larger, increased complexity, less displacement, less torque, with the same fuel economy.

It's not about what I want, it's a choice between (IMHO) the lesser of two crappy options being forced upon us by an articficial regulatory "need".

You have a point about the coyote not having much, if any, efficiency advantage over an L99/LS3. At the end of the day, the calories of energy in a gram of fuel is finite and you reach a point of diminishing returns as you try to scratch out 1 or 2 more MPG while trying to maintain a high power level. ...which is why I think power levels are reaching their peak in Gen6 or Gen7 for the foreseeable future. I don't beleive 400+ RWHP will continue to be available to a middleclass consumer unless something gives on the regulatory side or there is a huge technology breakthrough.

I think 2020 is going to be 1970 all over again. Peak HP for a generation or more. Each gasoline powered generation can't outperform the last to ininity under the current regulatory environment.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Capricio

It's not about what I want, it's a choice between (IMHO) the lesser of two crappy options being forced upon us by an articficial regulatory "need".

Originally Posted by Capricio

You have a point about the coyote not having much, if any, efficiency advantage over an L99/LS3. At the end of the day, the calories of energy in a gram of fuel is finite and you reach a point of diminishing returns as you try to scratch out 1 or 2 more MPG while trying to maintain a high power level. ...which is why I think power levels are reaching their peak in Gen6 or Gen7 for the foreseeable future. I don't beleive 400+ RWHP will continue to be available to a middleclass consumer unless something gives on the regulatory side or there is a huge technology breakthrough.

I think 2020 is going to be 1970 all over again. Peak HP for a generation or more. Each gasoline powered generation can't outperform the last to ininity under the current regulatory environment.

Possibly, but it will not be 1970 or 1980 by a longshot. You have to love "Insane Mode". LOL The future?

The Motortrend videos are so much better than the magazine.

[Jeffro19]

I agree it won't by like late 70'sor early 80's when horsepower was at a ridiculous low. I believe this will be going on well past 2020 just maybe different ways making more horsepower whether it be turbos or gas and electric combos like Porsche and mclaren just to not to those specific performance levels.