[oldman]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

If the demand is there for a MT then Corvette will put one in at some point, whether it makes sense or not. Just like spoilers on front wheel drive cars. I hope for a true MT on that Corvette, but I think the days of MT cars are almost over. I think we're heading for this:

https://youtu.be/FAvQSkK8Z8U

The Integra Type R has a large for the time rear spoiler, Honda says it worked and the car-dominated all forms of racing....

GM already makes a car for people that need a manual, it is called a Camaro. Available right now. GM built the mid-engine DCT combination because they reached the performance envelop of front engine, rear drive, and shift it yourself. They merrygoaround aint gonna stop. This is a game changer and anything right around 60K better setup or be relegated to the scrap heap...

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Also what demand? The reason there IS NO manual was lack of demand.

Perhaps a bit extreme; it's not like demand is zero-point-zero.

But I suppose that depends on one's definition of "lack". Lack, in a completely cold business sense here means "insufficient for business reasons", which in this case amounts to tacit admission that the business is going to knowingly abandon some number of potential customers.

I've been put through this very situation before. More than once.


Norm

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Perhaps a bit extreme; it's not like demand is zero-point-zero.

But I suppose that depends on one's definition of "lack". Lack, in a completely cold business sense here means "insufficient for business reasons", which in this case amounts to tacit admission that the business is going to knowingly abandon some number of potential customers.

I've been put through this very situation before. More than once.


Norm

15% and falling is not enough demand.

At some point you can't be like my industry where if you have money, we'll figure out a way to build it for you.

GM used to have a hard line of 5% of sales to stay in production. It's why the Cobalt SS and HHR SS died.

But you are correct. It's not NO demand. It's simply not enough demand to warrant the expense and capital. And the trend was only looking worse.

And I'm still wanting a pic of the footwell. My guess is there may not even be room for 3 pedals.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

15% and falling is not enough demand.

Seems like they're being overly stingy. I mean, Nissan went all the way down to that same 5% for their Maxima before throwing in the towel, and that's the top-shelf Nissan model (read: most upmarket/luxury).

Footwell space would be a consideration.


Norm

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Seems like they're being overly stingy. I mean, Nissan went all the way down to that same 5% for their Maxima before throwing in the towel, and that's the top-shelf Nissan model (read: most upmarket/luxury).

Footwell space would be a consideration.


Norm

I have a hunch there is, like many things, more to this story.

This feels like one of those GM convinced themselves it was ok to do things. Kind of like the rear seat in the Camaro. Publicly stating that since CR gave you a 1 for rear seat room for ANY coupe they didn't do anything about it. Which completely ignored the customer. That's certainly one that in retrospect could have an should have been addressed. Heck an ATS coupe has rear seat leg room and a decent trunk so it was possible.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

15% and falling is not enough demand.

At some point you can't be like my industry where if you have money, we'll figure out a way to build it for you.

GM used to have a hard line of 5% of sales to stay in production. It's why the Cobalt SS and HHR SS died.

But you are correct. It's not NO demand. It's simply not enough demand to warrant the expense and capital. And the trend was only looking worse.

And I'm still wanting a pic of the footwell. My guess is there may not even be room for 3 pedals.

When I was running Powertrain Service Operations 5% was our trigger point. Any engine or transmission product line that was less than 5% was reviewed for deproliferation. If it made money it might stay. Manual transmissions don’t make money, since they are typically the base configuration. There were some cases where we left them in place because people paid enough extra for the AT, but the price of the AT couldn’t be absorbed into the base price of the vehicle. But drop below 5% and the complexity reduction police (one of my teams) got sent out to investigate. And you are spot on wrt the Cobalt SS and HHR SS. That plus the Solstice GXP and Saturn Sky Redline (the only other users of that particular 2.0T) died when their brands died. Cobalt SS and HHR SS volume were not enough to keep the engine alive.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by oldman

The Integra Type R has a large for the time rear spoiler, Honda says it worked and the car-dominated all forms of racing....

GM already makes a car for people that need a manual, it is called a Camaro. Available right now. GM built the mid-engine DCT combination because they reached the performance envelop of front engine, rear drive, and shift it yourself. They merrygoaround aint gonna stop. This is a game changer and anything right around 60K better setup or be relegated to the scrap heap...

I’m sure all the Accord, Civic, Camry, and Focus spoilers are equally functional.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

When I was running Powertrain Service Operations 5% was our trigger point. Any engine or transmission product line that was less than 5% was reviewed for deproliferation. If it made money it might stay. Manual transmissions don’t make money, since they are typically the base configuration. There were some cases where we left them in place because people paid enough extra for the AT, but the price of the AT couldn’t be absorbed into the base price of the vehicle. But drop below 5% and the complexity reduction police (one of my teams) got sent out to investigate.

Did they ever bother to investigate whether people would be willing to pay extra to get a manual transmission? And if so, how much of a premium might people be willing to pay? This thought goes to a wider range of offerings (and mfrs) than just the C8 and Chevy.


Norm

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Number 3

15% and falling is not enough demand.

At some point you can't be like my industry where if you have money, we'll figure out a way to build it for you.

GM used to have a hard line of 5% of sales to stay in production. It's why the Cobalt SS and HHR SS died.

But you are correct. It's not NO demand. It's simply not enough demand to warrant the expense and capital. And the trend was only looking worse.

And I'm still wanting a pic of the footwell. My guess is there may not even be room for 3 pedals.

That (footwell space) could very well be a significant limiting factor. They’ve stated that the challenge of mid engine packaging is that, with the driver position moved forward, the wheelwell intrudes into available footwell space. Also high sill plates making it hard to get in/out.

They were determined not to lose compared to C7. The low sill was achieved with the center tunnel providing the strength and they mentioned not wanting to weaken it by cutting a hole for a manual. Footwell vs wheelwell is probably another. DCT is going to be badass so why compromise the driver environment for a low volume manual?

They kept the 6.2L OHV and upped the power/torque with LT2. That was more important than a manual IMO given the DCT.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Did they ever bother to investigate whether people would be willing to pay extra to get a manual transmission? And if so, how much of a premium might people be willing to pay? This thought goes to a wider range of offerings (and mfrs) than just the C8 and Chevy.


Norm

That's an entirely different model. Pay MORE for what has pretty much been considered the base transmission.

I believe GM made some trade offs that made a manual more difficult to execute.

Also may be as simple as the money to tool up two all new transmissions was just cost prohibitive. And for low volume, spending (guessing) another $50 million plus development costs didn't make sense for 5,000 cars per year and with a DCT available, my guess is that 15% would drop much further.

So if my $50 Million is even in the ball park, that's $10,000 per car at 15% penetration...…………..to break even in the first year.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

I’m sure all the Accord, Civic, Camry, and Focus spoilers are equally functional.

You would be wrong. If you don't like ricers that is fine, but to assume that Acura can't build a purpose built race car that actually performed would be an entirely different thing. The Integra Type R is a purpose built race car, things like thinner glass and sheet metal were all used. If it did not work or added weight it was NOT on the car...

We all can see which spoiler is functional can't we?

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Number 3

T
Also may be as simple as the money to tool up two all new transmissions was just cost prohibitive.

Yep, it is not like the old days and the auto and manual were basically the same chassis and it was just a normal production trans used in a billion cars. The C8 if it were to have a manual would require a redesign of the center stack, the footwell, the pedals, as well as an ENTIRE transmission. Along with the associated linkages. Then it would require the design of all the software and geewiz stuff. End result would be something that would cost more than a Z51 for significantly less performace

If you need or want a manual GM has one in the Camaro. I've come to terms with my Camaro being the last manual I will buy new period. It is what it is. These are first and formost performance cars and the DCT is significantly faster...

[oldman]

Originally Posted by hotlap

[/B]
That (footwell space) could very well be a significant limiting factor. They’ve stated that the challenge of mid engine packaging is that, with the driver position moved forward, the wheelwell intrudes into available footwell space. Also high sill plates making it hard to get in/out.

They were determined not to lose compared to C7. The low sill was achieved with the center tunnel providing the strength and they mentioned not wanting to weaken it by cutting a hole for a manual. Footwell vs wheelwell is probably another. DCT is going to be badass so why compromise the driver environment for a low volume manual?

They kept the 6.2L OHV and upped the power/torque with LT2. That was more important than a manual IMO given the DCT.

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by hotlap

[/B]
That (footwell space) could very well be a significant limiting factor. They’ve stated that the challenge of mid engine packaging is that, with the driver position moved forward, the wheelwell intrudes into available footwell space. Also high sill plates making it hard to get in/out.

They were determined not to lose compared to C7. The low sill was achieved with the center tunnel providing the strength and they mentioned not wanting to weaken it by cutting a hole for a manual. Footwell vs wheelwell is probably another. DCT is going to be badass so why compromise the driver environment for a low volume manual?

They kept the 6.2L OHV and upped the power/torque with LT2. That was more important than a manual IMO given the DCT.

I don't think foot well space is a limiting factor considering GM has added more on this model than the previous. In fact it was stated at the unveil with the mid engine design it allowed additional room for taller drivers. I think you are correct on the structural of the tunnel.

Buddy of mine is a VP of sales at a Chevrolet dealer, we talked and demand for the manuals is just not there anymore. It seem like more than it is because of the few that show up on forums or at events to complain they will not buy one if it is not a manual but sales numbers don't lie.. and nether does the track results.