[Silverado57]

It wasn't that long ago that it seemed the OEM horsepower wars were over. Now it looks like they're just starting.

[oldman]

actually, I'm turning into Norm, I can dig a Vette with a sub 3.0 zero to sixty. But at some point, the power is completely unusable and just outright dangerous. I'm know I'm being hypocritical. My own SS is unstreetable.. ie no way to apply power to the ground at any legal road speed and that is given a smooth straight road. I did this more as a hobby. In reality, I see about 600 HP NA to be about where Joe normal has any hope of using it and enjoying it. After that IMO, it becomes water cooler talk, because about the only way to "prove" the performace is a dyno, cause at that performace envelope, driverskill and reaction is more important than 100 extra HP...

We are talking street, I'll let the track rats express their opinion.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by wnta1ss

Test car was non-MRC so it had the 'lowering kit' which is springs and shocks.

your assumption of course. I assume that GM did not have a marketable kit for a non-MRC car, and since this was a MARKETING exercise, they went with what they are trying to sell. I without a doubt know that GM did indeed test a 1LE kit complete with tires and normal dampers (probably monotube), and know exactly how well the setup does. But since it does not sell product, which is GM's JOB, they don't publish the results.

Originally Posted by wnta1ss

MRC car 2017+ could use the 1LE springs with MRC cal.

.
Yep and I'm quite certain that the whole setup could also be used on:
1) the same damper GM uses on their "lowering kit"
2) a mono tube damper like they had on the 5th gen 1LE (think Bilstein here)
3) a dual damp adjustable twin tube like a koni.

Since they in business to sell a product, if any of the 3 above yielded lap times close to a real 1LE, and / or significantly better than their "lowering kit". Then people would NOT buy their kit or may even not buy their 1LE..

2 seconds for slammer springs vs a real 1LE, is a wide margin granted. The question is if the SS had road race springs and a real damper what would be that margin. You seem to say zero, but 20mm slammer springs give up a whole lot in terms of roll center and there is NO WAY for GM to sell a kit that would ever be able to recover from the loss because it would be TOO stiff. The Zl1 1LE is "only" 10mm down and requires a front spring 245% thicker and an adjustable perch to get some caster and camber back.

GM knows what can be done and I think there is a whole lot of information gleaned from there not testing an optimal 1LE like package based on a CHEAP hydraulic damper.

Let's be serious here, the lowering kit is for LOOKs period, any handling improvements (mainly or entirely from the bars and links) is completely incidental. You maybe able to type an internet argument, but CLEARLY you have no understanding of roll centers .

Originally Posted by wnta1ss

My point was that thinking the 1LE spring with MRC is 2 seconds faster than the 'lowering kit' springs and revalved shocks seems pretty far-fetched.

There are 4 things going on that leads to the 2 seconds
Spring
shock
eLSD
GeeWiz torque bias that makes use of eLSD


It comes down that you contend that most of all of it with an eLSD and GeeWiz. I contend that I don't know but based on experience a set of decent road race springs and hydro dampers would close the gap. We know for sure GM tested their bolt-on MRC 1 LE package against a 1LE, and they know what the laptime difference is.. Why don't the publish it? We know for sure GM tested hydro dampers vs the MRC, and for two offerings chose to
1) DSSV kit and also have it on the ZR1 1LE
2) use a hydro shock (probably dual tube) on their lowering kit

GM declined to offer a bolt on 1LE solution for non- MRC cars for unknown reasons, probably because even it did perform as well as a true 1LE, the vast majority of their buyers would still want the slammer springs which perform great, in fact, fantastic for what they are. Also, such a kit would definitely cut into 1LE sales.


Even if we meet 1/2 way and say a decent set of road race springs and hydro dampers would knock 1 second off. That leaves a 1LE and or a bolt on MRC 1LE very expensive for 1 second. I know which is a lifetime on a road race.... not so much on a street car where 95% of the Camaros live. So GM markets what the markets want. They have a 1LE, they have a bolt-on 1le minus the eLSD, they have the slammer crowd, they have their road race crowd. Each seems to have a package at a fair price, but I would contend their perforamce is more based on the design of the package vs an eLSD. Time will tell won't it? We do know that the MRC is NOT the top dog when it comes for dampers, and it may not even be the middle dog as there will be mono tube and dual adjust dampers with matching springs arriving.

Originally Posted by wnta1ss

So then you have to question whether the 1LE parts/features that cannot be added later (eLSD and PTM) is making for a difference in lap times. My overall point on his hypothesis was, you cannot truly make an SS into a 1LE after the fact, so the comparison that he had in mind won't work.

I think a proper setup DSSV and some tires would work wonders on a SS... obviously, GM feels the same way as the DSSV is their top damper and package, not the MRC.

So does the eLSD offer more than a DSSV, dunno. Point is you don't either. Yet you seem pretty insistent that it makes up the entire 2 seconds on one test. I think not.

[wnta1ss]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

So why do you think that GM decided not to call it a "street handling kit" instead?

Items for sale are normally labelled in a way that indicates their primary intent. Calling this a 'kit' does not change that, only means that you're getting more than just the springs. Does it improve anything else, like handling? Sure. But that doesn't change the kit's primary mission.

Availability of the ZL1 1LE Handling and DSSV kits (specifically noted as being preferred for autocross) makes your straw man accusation go away.


Norm

I did not say that just lowering the car was the key to handling, yet you continue to argue about lowering. Remember, you keep quoting me in your argument, and since I did not say what you are arguing about, that is a straw man by you.

[wnta1ss]

Originally Posted by oldman

2 seconds for slammer springs vs a real 1LE, is a wide margin granted. The question is if the SS had road race springs and a real damper what would be that margin. You seem to say zero, but 20mm slammer springs give up a whole lot in terms of roll center and there is NO WAY for GM to sell a kit that would ever be able to recover from the loss because it would be TOO stiff.

Your 'zero' statement here is not true, was not talking about a race car. I said that the 'lowering kit' which has shorter and stiffer springs with matched shocks, is not likely 2 seconds slower than the 1LE springs, which are shorter and stiffer than an FE3 as well, with it's accompanying recal. Since the modded SS was still 2 sec slower than a real 1LE, then the stuff that a 1LE has that cannot be added to an SS seems to have some value.

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by oldman

your assumption of course. I assume that GM did not have a marketable kit for a non-MRC car, and since this was a MARKETING exercise, they went with what they are trying to sell. I without a doubt know that GM did indeed test a 1LE kit complete with tires and normal dampers (probably monotube), and know exactly how well the setup does. But since it does not sell product, which is GM's JOB, they don't publish the results.


.
Yep and I'm quite certain that the whole setup could also be used on:
1) the same damper GM uses on their "lowering kit"
2) a mono tube damper like they had on the 5th gen 1LE (think Bilstein here)
3) a dual damp adjustable twin tube like a koni.

Since they in business to sell a product, if any of the 3 above yielded lap times close to a real 1LE, and / or significantly better than their "lowering kit". Then people would NOT buy their kit or may even not buy their 1LE..

2 seconds for slammer springs vs a real 1LE, is a wide margin granted. The question is if the SS had road race springs and a real damper what would be that margin. You seem to say zero, but 20mm slammer springs give up a whole lot in terms of roll center and there is NO WAY for GM to sell a kit that would ever be able to recover from the loss because it would be TOO stiff. The Zl1 1LE is "only" 10mm down and requires a front spring 245% thicker and an adjustable perch to get some caster and camber back.

GM knows what can be done and I think there is a whole lot of information gleaned from there not testing an optimal 1LE like package based on a CHEAP hydraulic damper.

Let's be serious here, the lowering kit is for LOOKs period, any handling improvements (mainly or entirely from the bars and links) is completely incidental. You maybe able to type an internet argument, but CLEARLY you have no understanding of roll centers .



There are 4 things going on that leads to the 2 seconds
Spring
shock
eLSD
GeeWiz torque bias that makes use of eLSD


It comes down that you contend that most of all of it with an eLSD and GeeWiz. I contend that I don't know but based on experience a set of decent road race springs and hydro dampers would close the gap. We know for sure GM tested their bolt-on MRC 1 LE package against a 1LE, and they know what the laptime difference is.. Why don't the publish it? We know for sure GM tested hydro dampers vs the MRC, and for two offerings chose to
1) DSSV kit and also have it on the ZR1 1LE
2) use a hydro shock (probably dual tube) on their lowering kit

GM declined to offer a bolt on 1LE solution for non- MRC cars for unknown reasons, probably because even it did perform as well as a true 1LE, the vast majority of their buyers would still want the slammer springs which perform great, in fact, fantastic for what they are. Also, such a kit would definitely cut into 1LE sales.


Even if we meet 1/2 way and say a decent set of road race springs and hydro dampers would knock 1 second off. That leaves a 1LE and or a bolt on MRC 1LE very expensive for 1 second. I know which is a lifetime on a road race.... not so much on a street car where 95% of the Camaros live. So GM markets what the markets want. They have a 1LE, they have a bolt-on 1le minus the eLSD, they have the slammer crowd, they have their road race crowd. Each seems to have a package at a fair price, but I would contend their perforamce is more based on the design of the package vs an eLSD. Time will tell won't it? We do know that the MRC is NOT the top dog when it comes for dampers, and it may not even be the middle dog as there will be mono tube and dual adjust dampers with matching springs arriving.



I think a proper setup DSSV and some tires would work wonders on a SS... obviously, GM feels the same way as the DSSV is their top damper and package, not the MRC.

So does the eLSD offer more than a DSSV, dunno. Point is you don't either. Yet you seem pretty insistent that it makes up the entire 2 seconds on one test. I think not.

You and Norm have really highjack this tread.. Last time I checked it was about the C8 Corvette and Camaro sales being affected by the cost of the C8... Did I miss something here?

Really?

I know that might be a hard conversation for Norm since he owns a Mustang .. While the Chevy guys can be concerned about Corvette and Camaro cost being close, that's not the case with the Mustang and Ford GT. Hell, $500,000.00 for the next step up from a Mustang there is no concern of Mustang owners buying a Ford GT because of the price is close. LOL

[craigss50]

Originally Posted by oldman

actually, I'm turning into Norm, I can dig a Vette with a sub 3.0 zero to sixty. But at some point, the power is completely unusable and just outright dangerous. I'm know I'm being hypocritical. My own SS is unstreetable.. ie no way to apply power to the ground at any legal road speed and that is given a smooth straight road. I did this more as a hobby. In reality, I see about 600 HP NA to be about where Joe normal has any hope of using it and enjoying it. After that IMO, it becomes water cooler talk, because about the only way to "prove" the performace is a dyno, cause at that performace envelope, driverskill and reaction is more important than 100 extra HP...

We are talking street, I'll let the track rats express their opinion.

Agree. With the 6th Gen I have reached my capability in street driving. A sub 3 sec car will be hard to manage on the street at full throttle. I am afraid we will see a lot of deadly accidents with this car when people try out it's performance on the street.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by wnta1ss

I did not say that just lowering the car was the key to handling, yet you continue to argue about lowering.

GM is calling this their "lowering kit". That identifies its intended purpose and its target buyer. Nowhere in Chevy's description does it even mention that this kit provided any performance improvement.

Now I'm sure that GM didn't want this kit to test any slower than base production stock, and they probably wanted a mild improvement. Which is what they got, but which is still not something they feel any need to advertise. And if they're not advertising any real performance improvement, only subjective feel, that must mean that GM didn't develop this kit with performance primarily in mind.

I will give you that at least one aftermarket outlet appears to be describing this kit as "16-19+ Camaro LS/LT & SS Performance Lowering Kit - General Motors". But that's their own independent advertising pitch, not GM's. GM doesn't even give performance secondary billing (i.e. "Lowering Performance" or some such).

How many threads here and over on Camaro5 are there where people are unhappy with the stock tire to fender gap to the point where they absolutely have to lower their rides? Vs how many people who don't autocross or track their cars pay any real attention to lap time performance potential in those activities?

I can read that performance actually did improve with the lowering kit just as well as you can.

Remember, you keep quoting me in your argument, and since I did not say what you are arguing about, that is a straw man by you.

What I'm trying to get across to you is that you're insisting that a strictly-secondary benefit of this kit is the primary reason for its existence. That's not a straw man thing at all.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Memphis SS

You and Norm have really highjack this tread.. Last time I checked it was about the C8 Corvette and Camaro sales being affected by the cost of the C8... Did I miss something here?

Started about here . . .

Originally Posted by 6spdhyperblue

What about taking a SS a10 mag-ride car and optioning 1le suspension (springs and sways wheelstires etc). Will this car be quicker around the track than a 1le 6spd?

I believe the ZL1 is quicker with the a10

and then wnta1ss picked up that ball and ran with it, just not quite in the right direction.


This thread has been sidetracked as much as it's been on-topic. I doubt this Camaro suspension one will be the last.


Norm

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by craigss50

Agree. With the 6th Gen I have reached my capability in street driving. A sub 3 sec car will be hard to manage on the street at full throttle. I am afraid we will see a lot of deadly accidents with this car when people try out it's performance on the street.

Me too. I ran across a newer Mustang GT this morning. Good looking car. Same color of red as mine, and same black 'highlights'. We horsed around a bit, nothing serious, just testing each other a bit. I realized, not for the first time, that even pushing my car to the limit in 3rd gear would be enough to earn a trip to jail.

[cbr1100xx]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Me too. I ran across a newer Mustang GT this morning. Good looking car. Same color of red as mine, and same black 'highlights'. We horsed around a bit, nothing serious, just testing each other a bit. I realized, not for the first time, that even pushing my car to the limit in 3rd gear would be enough to earn a trip to jail.

Agreed. I took my SS out last couple nights to the coast. Punched it a number of times hard on some back roads and the freeway. It gets up to speed so fast....80-90mph is achievable in a flash. I'm sure the C8 will be great but at some point, speed/acceleration reaches the law of diminishing returns.

The SS is already way more than I can utilize on the street. I'm thrilled with it and it would make no sense in my mind to spend another $25-30K for even more power.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by wnta1ss

Since the modded SS was still 2 sec slower than a real 1LE, then the stuff that a 1LE has that cannot be added to an SS seems to have some value.

Yep and I say adding a proper spring damper combo to the SS would close or maybe even eliminate that 2 second gap. Hence it would be easy to calculate the "value" of a 1LE.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Memphis SS

You and Norm have really highjack this tread.. Last time I checked it was about the C8 Corvette and Camaro sales being affected by the cost of the C8... Did I miss something here?

Really?

I know that might be a hard conversation for Norm since he owns a Mustang .. While the Chevy guys can be concerned about Corvette and Camaro cost being close, that's not the case with the Mustang and Ford GT. Hell, $500,000.00 for the next step up from a Mustang there is no concern of Mustang owners buying a Ford GT because of the price is close. LOL

True, but part of the thread is the eLSD and magshocks on the Vette Z51, which is also part of the Camaro 1LE setup. How much are you getting? One of the primary contentions is that a Camaro 1LE will out handle a base Vette (not made by me), maybe, but will it out handle a base Vette on summer tires. The rapidly degraded into how much handling does the 1LE offer over a properly setup spring and hydro damper? Not much on the street that is FOR SURE. Granted the ride is significantly better and also granted this is the number one reason for a magshock (which is an OPTION on the Z51). I would suspect cheap skinflints like me that got the Z51 without the magshock would be complaining about the kidney belt ride... I just went to Chevy.com a base SS with 1LE is $44,950.... I'm thinking heck no... I would rather have a base C8 and mod from there.

IMO a handling option like the Camaro 1LE, is no where close to the performance of a C8, even given the most minimal mods to the C8 like a summer tire. So will people be "pushed" into a Camaro. I don't think so. I think the Camaro 1LE people in general will be "wishing" they saved some cash and had it for a down on a C8.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by oldman

True, but part of the thread is the eLSD and magshocks on the Vette Z51, which is also part of the Camaro 1LE setup. How much are you getting? One of the primary contentions is that a Camaro 1LE will out handle a base Vette (not made by me), maybe, but will it out handle a base Vette on summer tires. The rapidly degraded into how much handling does the 1LE offer over a properly setup spring and hydro damper? Not much on the street that is FOR SURE. Granted the ride is significantly better and also granted this is the number one reason for a magshock (which is an OPTION on the Z51). I would suspect cheap skinflints like me that got the Z51 without the magshock would be complaining about the kidney belt ride... I just went to Chevy.com a base SS with 1LE is $49,950.... I'm thinking heck no... I would rather have a base C8 and mod from there.

IMO a handling option like the Camaro 1LE, is no where close to the performance of a C8, even given the most minimal mods to the C8 like a summer tire. So will people be "pushed" into a Camaro. I don't think so. I think the Camaro 1LE people in general will be "wishing" they saved some cash and had it for a down on a C8.

This 1LE owner will NOT be wishing that.