08-26-2019, 09:37 AM | #743 |
Drives: 2017 Camaro SS Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 522
|
It wasn't that long ago that it seemed the OEM horsepower wars were over. Now it looks like they're just starting.
__________________
Kevin
Luceo Non Uro |
08-26-2019, 02:36 PM | #744 |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,316
|
actually, I'm turning into Norm, I can dig a Vette with a sub 3.0 zero to sixty. But at some point, the power is completely unusable and just outright dangerous. I'm know I'm being hypocritical. My own SS is unstreetable.. ie no way to apply power to the ground at any legal road speed and that is given a smooth straight road. I did this more as a hobby. In reality, I see about 600 HP NA to be about where Joe normal has any hope of using it and enjoying it. After that IMO, it becomes water cooler talk, because about the only way to "prove" the performace is a dyno, cause at that performace envelope, driverskill and reaction is more important than 100 extra HP...
We are talking street, I'll let the track rats express their opinion.
__________________
Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
Last edited by oldman; 08-26-2019 at 03:12 PM. |
08-26-2019, 03:01 PM | #745 | |||
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,316
|
Quote:
. Yep and I'm quite certain that the whole setup could also be used on: 1) the same damper GM uses on their "lowering kit" 2) a mono tube damper like they had on the 5th gen 1LE (think Bilstein here) 3) a dual damp adjustable twin tube like a koni. Since they in business to sell a product, if any of the 3 above yielded lap times close to a real 1LE, and / or significantly better than their "lowering kit". Then people would NOT buy their kit or may even not buy their 1LE.. 2 seconds for slammer springs vs a real 1LE, is a wide margin granted. The question is if the SS had road race springs and a real damper what would be that margin. You seem to say zero, but 20mm slammer springs give up a whole lot in terms of roll center and there is NO WAY for GM to sell a kit that would ever be able to recover from the loss because it would be TOO stiff. The Zl1 1LE is "only" 10mm down and requires a front spring 245% thicker and an adjustable perch to get some caster and camber back. GM knows what can be done and I think there is a whole lot of information gleaned from there not testing an optimal 1LE like package based on a CHEAP hydraulic damper. Let's be serious here, the lowering kit is for LOOKs period, any handling improvements (mainly or entirely from the bars and links) is completely incidental. You maybe able to type an internet argument, but CLEARLY you have no understanding of roll centers . Quote:
Spring shock eLSD GeeWiz torque bias that makes use of eLSD It comes down that you contend that most of all of it with an eLSD and GeeWiz. I contend that I don't know but based on experience a set of decent road race springs and hydro dampers would close the gap. We know for sure GM tested their bolt-on MRC 1 LE package against a 1LE, and they know what the laptime difference is.. Why don't the publish it? We know for sure GM tested hydro dampers vs the MRC, and for two offerings chose to 1) DSSV kit and also have it on the ZR1 1LE 2) use a hydro shock (probably dual tube) on their lowering kit GM declined to offer a bolt on 1LE solution for non- MRC cars for unknown reasons, probably because even it did perform as well as a true 1LE, the vast majority of their buyers would still want the slammer springs which perform great, in fact, fantastic for what they are. Also, such a kit would definitely cut into 1LE sales. Even if we meet 1/2 way and say a decent set of road race springs and hydro dampers would knock 1 second off. That leaves a 1LE and or a bolt on MRC 1LE very expensive for 1 second. I know which is a lifetime on a road race.... not so much on a street car where 95% of the Camaros live. So GM markets what the markets want. They have a 1LE, they have a bolt-on 1le minus the eLSD, they have the slammer crowd, they have their road race crowd. Each seems to have a package at a fair price, but I would contend their perforamce is more based on the design of the package vs an eLSD. Time will tell won't it? We do know that the MRC is NOT the top dog when it comes for dampers, and it may not even be the middle dog as there will be mono tube and dual adjust dampers with matching springs arriving. Quote:
So does the eLSD offer more than a DSSV, dunno. Point is you don't either. Yet you seem pretty insistent that it makes up the entire 2 seconds on one test. I think not.
__________________
Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
|
|||
08-27-2019, 05:52 AM | #746 | |
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 1,692
|
Quote:
|
|
08-27-2019, 06:14 AM | #747 | |
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 1,692
|
Quote:
|
|
08-27-2019, 08:27 AM | #748 | |
Drives: 2017 SS A8 Hyper Blue/White Stripes Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Arlington, TN.
Posts: 1,874
|
Quote:
You and Norm have really highjack this tread.. Last time I checked it was about the C8 Corvette and Camaro sales being affected by the cost of the C8... Did I miss something here? Really? I know that might be a hard conversation for Norm since he owns a Mustang .. While the Chevy guys can be concerned about Corvette and Camaro cost being close, that's not the case with the Mustang and Ford GT. Hell, $500,000.00 for the next step up from a Mustang there is no concern of Mustang owners buying a Ford GT because of the price is close. LOL
__________________
2017 Camaro 2SS Hyper Blue
2011 Camaro 2SS 2004 Corvette CE SOLD |
|
08-27-2019, 08:58 AM | #749 | |
Drives: 2017 Camaro SS Fifty Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Port St Lucie, Florida
Posts: 966
|
Quote:
Agree. With the 6th Gen I have reached my capability in street driving. A sub 3 sec car will be hard to manage on the street at full throttle. I am afraid we will see a lot of deadly accidents with this car when people try out it's performance on the street. |
|
08-27-2019, 09:14 AM | #750 | ||
corner barstool sitter
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 6,990
|
Quote:
Now I'm sure that GM didn't want this kit to test any slower than base production stock, and they probably wanted a mild improvement. Which is what they got, but which is still not something they feel any need to advertise. And if they're not advertising any real performance improvement, only subjective feel, that must mean that GM didn't develop this kit with performance primarily in mind. I will give you that at least one aftermarket outlet appears to be describing this kit as "16-19+ Camaro LS/LT & SS Performance Lowering Kit - General Motors". But that's their own independent advertising pitch, not GM's. GM doesn't even give performance secondary billing (i.e. "Lowering Performance" or some such). How many threads here and over on Camaro5 are there where people are unhappy with the stock tire to fender gap to the point where they absolutely have to lower their rides? Vs how many people who don't autocross or track their cars pay any real attention to lap time performance potential in those activities? I can read that performance actually did improve with the lowering kit just as well as you can. Quote:
Norm
__________________
'08 GT coupe 5M (the occasional track toy)
'19 WRX 6M (the family sedan . . . seriously) |
||
08-27-2019, 09:42 AM | #751 | ||
corner barstool sitter
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 6,990
|
Quote:
Quote:
This thread has been sidetracked as much as it's been on-topic. I doubt this Camaro suspension one will be the last. Norm
__________________
'08 GT coupe 5M (the occasional track toy)
'19 WRX 6M (the family sedan . . . seriously) |
||
08-27-2019, 10:57 AM | #752 |
Banned
Drives: 2018 Camaro SS1 1LE Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,595
|
Me too. I ran across a newer Mustang GT this morning. Good looking car. Same color of red as mine, and same black 'highlights'. We horsed around a bit, nothing serious, just testing each other a bit. I realized, not for the first time, that even pushing my car to the limit in 3rd gear would be enough to earn a trip to jail.
|
08-27-2019, 11:58 AM | #753 | |
Account Suspended
Drives: '14 Jetta 1.8, '19 1SS Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 886
|
Quote:
The SS is already way more than I can utilize on the street. I'm thrilled with it and it would make no sense in my mind to spend another $25-30K for even more power. |
|
08-27-2019, 01:37 PM | #754 |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,316
|
Yep and I say adding a proper spring damper combo to the SS would close or maybe even eliminate that 2 second gap. Hence it would be easy to calculate the "value" of a 1LE.
__________________
Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
|
08-27-2019, 01:42 PM | #755 | |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,316
|
Quote:
IMO a handling option like the Camaro 1LE, is no where close to the performance of a C8, even given the most minimal mods to the C8 like a summer tire. So will people be "pushed" into a Camaro. I don't think so. I think the Camaro 1LE people in general will be "wishing" they saved some cash and had it for a down on a C8.
__________________
Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
Last edited by oldman; 08-27-2019 at 09:04 PM. |
|
08-27-2019, 03:05 PM | #756 | |
Banned
Drives: 2018 Camaro SS1 1LE Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,595
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|