Shno's House of Z

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Hey, We’re back online! What happened? Part of the strike?��

Yeah, the 1s and 0s weren't happy with what we were paying them. So we transferred operations to a new location.



That is to say ... we moved servers.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Yeah, the 1s and 0s weren't happy with what we were paying them. So we transferred operations to a new location.



That is to say ... we moved servers.

Gotcha, thanks.

[69L48Z27]

I really have no idea what this thread is but it seems like your all talking about the future...

Two things:

Sound bite from the C8.R - Flat plane crank?

Also, I keep seeing that the Camaro is disco in 2022 or 23. Has GM actually press released this info or is it rumor?

Maybe a flat plane crank Z/28 in the future? Keeping it all under wraps.

https://youtu.be/BlGLoWnHyMw

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by 69L48Z27

I really have no idea what this thread is but it seems like your all talking about the future...

Two things:

Sound bite from the C8.R - Flat plane crank? Pretty Sure

Also, I keep seeing that the Camaro is disco in 2022 or 23. Has GM actually press released this info or is it rumor? Rumor that keeps being retold??? (they better not!)

Maybe a flat plane crank Z/28 in the future? Keeping it all under wraps. That would be cool!
https://youtu.be/BlGLoWnHyMw

[Schlok]

Could be a good way to wrap-up the Gen 6 Camaro. Wouldn't be the first time a Corvette Z06 engine lands in a Camaro........This will have given the ZL1-1LE plenty of time on the market to slay some competitors.

[Bhobbs]

I’d be very surprised. The LS7 went into the Z/28 because it was no longer used by the Corvette. No way will GM risk the Z06 by letting a Z/28 get the same engine. Besides, the Z06 will likely be forced induction.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I’d be very surprised. The LS7 went into the Z/28 because it was no longer used by the Corvette. No way will GM risk the Z06 by letting a Z/28 get the same engine. Besides, the Z06 will likely be forced induction.

What are they risking? Even with the same engine in both a C8 Z06 and a gen 6 Z/28, the performance won't even be close.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

What are they risking? Even with the same engine in both a C8 Z06 and a gen 6 Z/28, the performance won't even be close.

Maybe not risk but compromise. Looking at the LT2, the intake manifold is very tall. The packaging requirements of the C8 are very different to the C7 Z06. I don't see them compromising the design of the C8 engine to fit the Alpha.

[Number 3]

The Camaro seems to be at a major cross roads. Those that think (and joyously loved) over the past few years the fact that GM "allowed" the Camaro to be equal to the Corvette in performance, HP etc are going to be significantly disappointed with the C8 now at a completely different level. The Camaro engine for engine will not keep up.

As for the future of the Camaro? Well it passed once due to poor sales. But back then the car was trying to keep an entire plant open by itself. The current car has two Cadillacs helping with that. At this point, it doesn't cost much to keep running Camaros down the line at LGR. The issue becomes is the volume now enough to justify further investment. GM did spend to get a mid cycle refresh, and then re-spent to make a slight correction to that refresh. But to start making major powertrain changes at this point does not seem likely.

On another front, however, I have concerns about GM's overall product strategy. They are either being very sneaky or simply wayyyyyy behind. If you look at the most recent or about to launch products all ICE by the way, Cadillac XT4, XT6, CT4 and CT5 (4 all new launches in just over a year) and none do anything spectacularly well. Our XT4 is a very nice vehicle, we like it a lot. But easily a half dozen choices that are equal or better in the market. Early looks at the two sedans don't show me anything special other than updated cars. We had 2 ATS sedans before the XT4. Really nice cars but poor packaging, and ultimately dull interiors with CUE. The new replacement does nothing special that I can see.

Buick? No more sedans after the Regal dies after 2020. Only thing on the radar is the Encore GX. Nice looking and I hope it does well, but with Buick backing off of luxury car warranties (4 years vs 3) I'm not sure where Buick is going with a 4 SUV lineup.

Chevrolet has the C8 halo for a while, but their lineup is also confusing. Other than Corvette, the only thing new is the Blazer (haven't seen sales numbers...……...just like I haven't seen many on the road) and the Trailblazer which again doesn't do anything special. Spy photos show a 3 row Blazer coming soon. And almost unbelievably, the Silverado is now 3rd behind Ford and RAM.

And the onslaught of EVs, 20 by 2023? Maybe that's the magic coming, but the introductions for those are currently in China (Chevy Menlo). We've been teased with images of a Cadillac SUV.

Yes they are somehow printing $$ from a profitability POV. I just want the differentiating products.

So back the Camaro. Maybe it's part of the master plan to redefine the industry with EV or even Fuel Cell propulsion systems. Or maybe it dies because coupe volumes are following sedan volumes. If there were anything on the Horizon we would see camo spy photos. Remember the first camo cars are about 80 weeks from start of production. So a 2021 Camaro would be well inside of that and there are no spy photos. 2022 is the best hope and rumors indicate 2023 at best. But if you look at a 5 or even 6 year lifecycle, the Camaro is now well over that.

And maybe the saddest news is the death of the CT6 V and the Blackwing V8. An awesome car that will oddly continue production in China, just not here. Maybe with a trade deal, GM brings it in from China but the odd thing is the number of cars GM is keeping in production in other countries, just not in the US. LaCrosse, CT6, Cruise, Verano and did you know Buick has a minivan in China? And one of the oldest names, Impala is now gone as well. Probably come back someday as an SUV.

So Camaro's future? As always, only time will tell. But I am hoping for something truly transformational. But there likely won't be a NG car unless it is exactly that, transformational.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The Camaro seems to be at a major cross roads. Those that think (and joyously loved) over the past few years the fact that GM "allowed" the Camaro to be equal to the Corvette in performance, HP etc are going to be significantly disappointed with the C8 now at a completely different level. The Camaro engine for engine will not keep up.

As for the future of the Camaro? Well it passed once due to poor sales. But back then the car was trying to keep an entire plant open by itself. The current car has two Cadillacs helping with that. At this point, it doesn't cost much to keep running Camaros down the line at LGR. The issue becomes is the volume now enough to justify further investment. GM did spend to get a mid cycle refresh, and then re-spent to make a slight correction to that refresh. But to start making major powertrain changes at this point does not seem likely.

On another front, however, I have concerns about GM's overall product strategy. They are either being very sneaky or simply wayyyyyy behind. If you look at the most recent or about to launch products all ICE by the way, Cadillac XT4, XT6, CT4 and CT5 (4 all new launches in just over a year) and none do anything spectacularly well. Our XT4 is a very nice vehicle, we like it a lot. But easily a half dozen choices that are equal or better in the market. Early looks at the two sedans don't show me anything special other than updated cars. We had 2 ATS sedans before the XT4. Really nice cars but poor packaging, and ultimately dull interiors with CUE. The new replacement does nothing special that I can see.

Buick? No more sedans after the Regal dies after 2020. Only thing on the radar is the Encore GX. Nice looking and I hope it does well, but with Buick backing off of luxury car warranties (4 years vs 3) I'm not sure where Buick is going with a 4 SUV lineup.

Chevrolet has the C8 halo for a while, but their lineup is also confusing. Other than Corvette, the only thing new is the Blazer (haven't seen sales numbers...……...just like I haven't seen many on the road) and the Trailblazer which again doesn't do anything special. Spy photos show a 3 row Blazer coming soon. And almost unbelievably, the Silverado is now 3rd behind Ford and RAM.

And the onslaught of EVs, 20 by 2023? Maybe that's the magic coming, but the introductions for those are currently in China (Chevy Menlo). We've been teased with images of a Cadillac SUV.

Yes they are somehow printing $$ from a profitability POV. I just want the differentiating products.

So back the Camaro. Maybe it's part of the master plan to redefine the industry with EV or even Fuel Cell propulsion systems. Or maybe it dies because coupe volumes are following sedan volumes. If there were anything on the Horizon we would see camo spy photos. Remember the first camo cars are about 80 weeks from start of production. So a 2021 Camaro would be well inside of that and there are no spy photos. 2022 is the best hope and rumors indicate 2023 at best. But if you look at a 5 or even 6 year lifecycle, the Camaro is now well over that.

And maybe the saddest news is the death of the CT6 V and the Blackwing V8. An awesome car that will oddly continue production in China, just not here. Maybe with a trade deal, GM brings it in from China but the odd thing is the number of cars GM is keeping in production in other countries, just not in the US. LaCrosse, CT6, Cruise, Verano and did you know Buick has a minivan in China? And one of the oldest names, Impala is now gone as well. Probably come back someday as an SUV.

So Camaro's future? As always, only time will tell. But I am hoping for something truly transformational. But there likely won't be a NG car unless it is exactly that, transformational.

Typically insightful post from #3. There is a lot to unpack here. The best I can say with confidence is there is no Camaro eSUV in the product plan

MR is a car guy. With him in a key role, there has to be a better plan than what we see. With the announcement of the Lordstown battery facility maybe the next chapter in GM history will be electric and redefine their product line?

[Matty Ice]

Holy crap! Hello JP!

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Matty Ice

Holy crap! Hello JP!

[Supercup]

From a sale perspective the number trends don't look to positive for the Camaro! Pretty consistent sales from 10 - 15 (Gen 5), with natural trail off in 2015, with new car coming out. Gen 6 - big drop and declining since, now stable at about 50k, a 40% decline in sales - from 14 to 18/19? So is the Camaro no longer interesting or relevant or did it get too small (trunk on Gen 6 sucks).

Mustang got good sales bump with new model as well, so the may have stolen some sales from recent years. Challenger has been building and now stable at 65k per year. Trend for 2019 - is about a 10% drop in sales across the board for all three carsl, which makes sense as there is nothing new!

So why spend a lot of $ to develop a market segment that seems to be split up 3 ways and trending in the wrong dirction? The buyer pool does not seem to be as broad - for example the Mustang sold between 117k - 169k per year from 1994 - 2007 the Camaro and Challenger were absent in the highest sales years for the Mustang.

The Challenger was the new kid on the block and has grown sales from zilch in 2008 to a steady 64k-66k per year - so they are taking some sales from Camaro and Mustang as well, but the Mustang has certainly held up better than the Camaro.

Seems both the Challenger and the Mustang are offering a product that more people want. Mustang is very similar, but has more room and bigger trunk. Challenger is bigger still and has more room overall. So the Gen 6 is a better platform for performance, but it may not be delivering what the customer wants. When you factor in the Challenger sales, it would appear the Camaro and Mustang have lost a lot of ground to it.

The Camaro will likely loose even more sales of the Chevrolet faithful to the C8 corvettes going forward, so for GM the $ should be spent here developing the platform and offering as many variations and price points as they can for the C8, to maximize sales (a la the Porsche 911 with 18 interations).

That leaves the Camaro looking to play in the lower price segement for the car (less than $55k) - so will that be a product that will sell and how do they compete with Mustang and Challenger, when their products have a broader appeal and functionality? Will it make sense to have low volume segments for Camaro like ZL1 and ZLE for bragging rights with Mustang - if they are willing to use motors developed for the C8, they certainly can - but what about development of the rest of the car?

EV suits the size of the Mustang and Challenger - so Comaro has to get more usable (likley larger) to compete with Mustang and Challenger if they go EV with these platforms.

Camaro as we know it is likley going to go EV or take a break in production after Gen 6 - so as it turns out better performance, at the expense of functionality is not a successsful formula for the Gen 6.

Another factor that has changed the car business is the 72 month loan - this is the primary loan term selected and it is pushing down the road future sales and was a big mistake by mfg's to spur sales. This was a way to offset the higher cost of cars, but has come at a price of longer ownership life cycles. In addtion up to 2007 leased cars were a huge segment and that dropped after mfg.'s got stuck with cars with too high residuals and took losses after getting them back, so the correctly priced the leases and this reduced total sales in this segment - again extending the buying cycle from 3 year to 5 - 7.

So many factor in play here that it is hard to know what the future holds, but sale figures below do say that there are 200,000 people per year who want a Camaro/Mustang/Challenger type vehicle to drive - and that number is pretty solid and has been stable for 20 + years - pretty hard to walk away from that, but if Chevrolet does, they certainly will get thank you notes from Ford and Dodge!

Chevrolet, either needs to either kill the Camaro or work on moving as many of those sale as they can to the Corvette as possilble or keep the Camaro and refocus on total function versus Mustang and Challenger - with the back seat and trunk being key factors why you buy a Camaro and not a Corvette! Problem is at 50k cars per year the bean counters will not be wanting to give a green light for more development costs, unless they can support a sales case for 80k cars or more.

Sales Results - USA -

Year Camaro Mustang Challenger Total
2019 36,791 55,365 46,699 139,146 - (Jan - Sept)
2018 50,963 75,842 66,716 193,251
2017 67,940 81,866 64,537 214,334
2016 72,705 105,932 64,478 243,385
2015 77,502 122,430 66,365 266,297
2014 86,297 82,635 51,611 220,643
2013 80,567 77,186 51,462 209,395
2012 84,391 82,995 43,119 210,505
2011 88,249 70,438 39,534 198,221
2010 81,299 73,416 36,791 191,506

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Originally Posted by Supercup

From a sale perspective the number trends don't look to positive for the Camaro! Pretty consistent sales from 10 - 15 (Gen 5), with natural trail off in 2015, with new car coming out. Gen 6 - big drop and declining since, now stable at about 50k, a 40% decline in sales - from 14 to 18/19? So is the Camaro no longer interesting or relevant or did it get too small (trunk on Gen 6 sucks).

Mustang got good sales bump with new model as well, so the may have stolen some sales from recent years. Challenger has been building and now stable at 65k per year. Trend for 2019 - is about a 10% drop in sales across the board for all three carsl, which makes sense as there is nothing new!

So why spend a lot of $ to develop a market segment that seems to be split up 3 ways and trending in the wrong dirction? The buyer pool does not seem to be as broad - for example the Mustang sold between 117k - 169k per year from 1994 - 2007 the Camaro and Challenger were absent in the highest sales years for the Mustang.

The Challenger was the new kid on the block and has grown sales from zilch in 2008 to a steady 64k-66k per year - so they are taking some sales from Camaro and Mustang as well, but the Mustang has certainly held up better than the Camaro.

Seems both the Challenger and the Mustang are offering a product that more people want. Mustang is very similar, but has more room and bigger trunk. Challenger is bigger still and has more room overall. So the Gen 6 is a better platform for performance, but it may not be delivering what the customer wants. When you factor in the Challenger sales, it would appear the Camaro and Mustang have lost a lot of ground to it.

The Camaro will likely loose even more sales of the Chevrolet faithful to the C8 corvettes going forward, so for GM the $ should be spent here developing the platform and offering as many variations and price points as they can for the C8, to maximize sales (a la the Porsche 911 with 18 interations).

That leaves the Camaro looking to play in the lower price segement for the car (less than $55k) - so will that be a product that will sell and how do they compete with Mustang and Challenger, when their products have a broader appeal and functionality? Will it make sense to have low volume segments for Camaro like ZL1 and ZLE for bragging rights with Mustang - if they are willing to use motors developed for the C8, they certainly can - but what about development of the rest of the car?

EV suits the size of the Mustang and Challenger - so Comaro has to get more usable (likley larger) to compete with Mustang and Challenger if they go EV with these platforms.

Camaro as we know it is likley going to go EV or take a break in production after Gen 6 - so as it turns out better performance, at the expense of functionality is not a successsful formula for the Gen 6.

Another factor that has changed the car business is the 72 month loan - this is the primary loan term selected and it is pushing down the road future sales and was a big mistake by mfg's to spur sales. This was a way to offset the higher cost of cars, but has come at a price of longer ownership life cycles. In addtion up to 2007 leased cars were a huge segment and that dropped after mfg.'s got stuck with cars with too high residuals and took losses after getting them back, so the correctly priced the leases and this reduced total sales in this segment - again extending the buying cycle from 3 year to 5 - 7.

So many factor in play here that it is hard to know what the future holds, but sale figures below do say that there are 200,000 people per year who want a Camaro/Mustang/Challenger type vehicle to drive - and that number is pretty solid and has been stable for 20 + years - pretty hard to walk away from that, but if Chevrolet does, they certainly will get thank you notes from Ford and Dodge!

Chevrolet, either needs to either kill the Camaro or work on moving as many of those sale as they can to the Corvette as possilble or keep the Camaro and refocus on total function versus Mustang and Challenger - with the back seat and trunk being key factors why you buy a Camaro and not a Corvette! Problem is at 50k cars per year the bean counters will not be wanting to give a green light for more development costs, unless they can support a sales case for 80k cars or more.

Sales Results - USA -

Year Camaro Mustang Challenger Total
2019 36,791 55,365 46,699 139,146 - (Jan - Sept)
2018 50,963 75,842 66,716 193,251
2017 67,940 81,866 64,537 214,334
2016 72,705 105,932 64,478 243,385
2015 77,502 122,430 66,365 266,297
2014 86,297 82,635 51,611 220,643
2013 80,567 77,186 51,462 209,395
2012 84,391 82,995 43,119 210,505
2011 88,249 70,438 39,534 198,221
2010 81,299 73,416 36,791 191,506

Don't know where you got the # from, but in the 2010 model year camaro sold more then 100k in cars for that year.