[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Isnt this how it works now? Doesnt seem to stop the people ruining it for the rest of us.

That’s my point - what a few people do should not ruin it for everyone. Deal with those who do things wrong on an individual basis. Let the rest of us continue to have access to the equipment.

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by gtfoxy

I don’t blame you.

I get what you’re saying, but educate yourself a tad before making statements regarding cats & HP. The limits aren’t 40HP, it’s a “here’s the limit, beyond that is a quotient of exponential limit.” sorta thing.

I’m not saying I don’t think cats are needed, given current engine dynamics, because they are, in terms of noxious gaseous output.

Here’s the thing though, if direct fuel injection was the holy grail it has been touted as, why are they needed? The fact is better emissions can actually be met by an existing in-tract emulsification system that beats DFI & doesn’t even need cats.

I’ve read many papers that revolve around injection timing & “stratification” as if it’s some magic voodoo when the reality is it’s a bunch of engineer lingidy BS.

I’m not tipping my hat as of yet, but let’s just say there may be something in the works that will put current exhaust gas mix ratios on their ear.

As a reality check, it’s already been done. & the guy that did it taught me.

Without a catalyst, emissions would be somewhere between 10 - 40 times the emission standard depending on the constituent in question and the specific application/tune/certification level. Direct injection, while providing an improvement to combustion control and BSFC, was never considered a lever to negate the need for the catalyst.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

I look at it like this: the onus should be on the customer. If you modify your car to where it won’t pass emissions yet keep it registered for driving on public roads, that should be on you. Let the companies continue to produce all the gear - with clear and extremely visible warnings that said device is not emission compliant - and let people buy them and do what they may and let them take the risk.

Just like cigarettes. I don’t smoke, we all know they’re cancer sticks, but I have no problem if everyone else puffs away 3 packs a day. They should never be made illegal or removed from store shelves.

Freedoms come with Personal responsibility. We need to stop treating adults with kid gloves.

While I agree, the problem is that MOST of the country actually does 'NOT' perform emissions inspections. That includes unurbanized and rural areas which most of this country really is. There are exceptions like California but most of the time, inspects are done in urbanized areas and it would cost money to spread that across the entire country where the bulk of offenders are getting away.

I particularly am indifferent because I won't be using any high performance car without catalytic converters but I do feel its very unfair for those who are intending for offroad use at a track.

Fortunately for those off road, you can still get a system with cats, chop them and wield pipe in its place ... but it will cost more.

On my way to work today I guess I pretty much gave in and I asked myself if I can expect an Gas-Electric Hybrid Camaro in the future.. ..with the way fuel prices are climbing, there's no way the Camaro can remain gas only.

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Not exactly true. The law was that you cannot remove or alter the location of manufacturer installed emission's equipment on a vehicle that either is less than a certain amount of time old (I believe it was 6 years) or had less than a certain amount of miles (I believe it was 60K miles) so if you had a 2018 SS with 61K miles then you cannot alter the OEM cats. Likewise if you had a 2014 SS with 32K miles then you could not alter them. But if you had a 2014 SS with 65K miles then you could. Of course different states have different rules on this but those were the federal laws that I remember reading a few years ago. I remember bringing this up back on the Camaro5 pages back before the Camaro6 days.

My tuner told me that my vehicle can still be tuned. Again, I think they were looking more towards diesel stuff (for now) and other specific items. As of right now I do believe there are tuners still tuning. But it is coming.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Look at it this way...my HC is modded and tuned. However it has all the factory emission stuff still on, intact, and functioning properly. Modding a vehicle is not illegal except in California. And to mod you will need to tune in a lot of cases. So it is not illegal. Whenever you remove emission equipment illegally and then tune the vehicle around it, then from what I understand, THAT is what they're going after. However they're going straight to the source which is the manufacturer of "off-road" items.

Also remember that there are a lot of canned tunes out there that are legal for use and work on factory or slightly modded vehicles with emission equipment in place. Now if there is a feature on it allowing to tune for no cats, then I can see those features being removed and the tuners ill still be allowed to be sold. But again, this is just what I understand it to be.

You also have to factor that Ford was selling tunes for people with the GT who upgraded to the GT350 IM/TB. Those tunes were perfectly legal and simple adjusted the engine parameters to work with the TB and the extra flow of the IM...as well as altering the RPMs. So tuning itself is not illegal as far as I know. As long as they aren't tuning a vehicle for illegal or unlawful use on public roads.

Which law are you referring to above? There's a reason GM has to go off and certify things like their cold air induction system and the tune that goes along with it. Small changes to the calibration could definitely impact the engine out and tailpipe emissions, even with the OEM catalysts in place. The changes you've described on your car would almost certainly increase several of the regulated constituents, even with your tune (I'm sure you were optimizing for power and not for emissions). A calibration change (that affects engine performance) would be considered a defeat device - for instance, setting up the tune to run a little bit leaner than stock might net you a fuel economy benefit at light load, but would also significantly reduce the effectiveness of the catalyst.

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

While I agree, the problem is that MOST of the country actually does 'NOT' perform emissions inspections. That includes unurbanized and rural areas which most of this country really is. There are exceptions like California but most of the time, inspects are done in urbanized areas and it would cost money to spread that across the entire country where the bulk of offenders are getting away.

I particularly am indifferent because I won't be using any high performance car without catalytic converters but I do feel its very unfair for those who are intending for offroad use at a track.

Fortunately for those off road, you can still get a system with cats, chop them and wield pipe in its place ... but it will cost more.

On my way to work today I guess I pretty much gave in and I asked myself if I can expect an Gas-Electric Hybrid Camaro in the future.. ..with the way fuel prices are climbing, there's no way the Camaro can remain gas only.

Regarding your comment on gas price trends, just to put some data around that, here's the national average over the last 10 years. Is it really that much different now?

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

On my way to work today I guess I pretty much gave in and I asked myself if I can expect an Gas-Electric Hybrid Camaro in the future.. ..with the way fuel prices are climbing, there's no way the Camaro can remain gas only.

I'm not sure gas prices will remain high forever. Remember the last time gas was like $4.00/gal even here in Ohio? Everyone ran to economy cars and hybrids, they ran that good old "Cash For Clunkers" program, and then gas prices came right back down. Everyone traded in their Civic for a Suburban again.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by vtirocz

Which law are you referring to above? There's a reason GM has to go off and certify things like their cold air induction system and the tune that goes along with it. Small changes to the calibration could definitely impact the engine out and tailpipe emissions, even with the OEM catalysts in place. The changes you've described on your car would almost certainly increase several of the regulated constituents, even with your tune (I'm sure you were optimizing for power and not for emissions). A calibration change (that affects engine performance) would be considered a defeat device - for instance, setting up the tune to run a little bit leaner than stock might net you a fuel economy benefit at light load, but would also significantly reduce the effectiveness of the catalyst.

This was quite a few years ago and it was a federal law regarding emission equipment on vehicles. On the same point, I remember a time many years ago when a local muffler shop would not install an aftermarket Y-Pipe on my IROC because the cat was gutted. Oh how far we have come since those days.

I understand that any change, even as small as a CAI, can alter the AF ratios. However it is still legal. SLP had the Panther Edition Camaro SS in the 5th Gen days that had a blower on it and was sold in dealerships. It was not factory. It was an aftermarket modded vehicle that came complete with an inspection sticker and you could buy it from the dealership floor. Lebanon Ford still sells their supercharged Mustangs. Ford themselves were selling the GT350 IM/TB/CAI kit along with their tune to use on the 15-17 GTs and that was completely legal. Roush. Calloway. Hennessey. Lingenfelter. And others. These are examples of legal modifications to vehicles. While it alters the AF ratio etc etc, it is still legal, will pass the MV inspection, and can be used on public roads...except in California.

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

This was quite a few years ago and it was a federal law regarding emission equipment on vehicles. On the same point, I remember a time many years ago when a local muffler shop would not install an aftermarket Y-Pipe on my IROC because the cat was gutted. Oh how far we have come since those days.

I understand that any change, even as small as a CAI, can alter the AF ratios. However it is still legal. SLP had the Panther Edition Camaro SS in the 5th Gen days that had a blower on it and was sold in dealerships. It was not factory. It was an aftermarket modded vehicle that came complete with an inspection sticker and you could buy it from the dealership floor. Lebanon Ford still sells their supercharged Mustangs. Ford themselves were selling the GT350 IM/TB/CAI kit along with their tune to use on the 15-17 GTs and that was completely legal. Roush. Calloway. Hennessey. Lingenfelter. And others. These are examples of legal modifications to vehicles. While it alters the AF ratio etc etc, it is still legal, will pass the MV inspection, and can be used on public roads...except in California.

The difference with those examples (I think), is that they are certified, which means the company would have performed the emission testing on specified cycles to prove transparency or within applicable limits.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by vtirocz

Regarding your comment on gas price trends, just to put some data around that, here's the national average over the last 10 years. Is it really that much different now?

The problem is, fuel prices are already climbing beyond pre-pandemic levels while we have only half the traffic volumes // actual gasoline demand. Once traffic volumes return to normal and the demand for gasoline increases then we will have prices higher than pre-pandemic levels.

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

I'm not sure gas prices will remain high forever. Remember the last time gas was like $4.00/gal even here in Ohio? Everyone ran to economy cars and hybrids, they ran that good old "Cash For Clunkers" program, and then gas prices came right back down. Everyone traded in their Civic for a Suburban again.

I have a secondary Hybrid anyway so I can always DD it if it gets ridiculous.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

The problem is, fuel prices are already climbing beyond pre-pandemic levels while we have only half the traffic volumes // actual gasoline demand. Once traffic volumes return to normal and the demand for gasoline increases then we will have prices higher than pre-pandemic levels.



I have a secondary Hybrid anyway so I can always DD it if it gets ridiculous.

Didn't OPEC and US agree on cutting the oil supply or something? Isn't that the reason?

Once the demand spring back, the supply will spring back as well.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

I drive about 60 miles 3 days a week for my job. It's becoming a killer for the premium fuel here in Southwest FL where gas prices are higher.


I know the way I drive is a factor too!

[Paulie-G]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Didn't OPEC and US agree on cutting the oil supply or something? Isn't that the reason?

Once the demand spring back, the supply will spring back as well.

Not if they keep printing money.

Brrrrrttt. 1.9 trillion.

[CHASLT1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

But then that opens up a can of worms because then even fuel additives, removal of the air filter, or other simple things could be interpreted as messing with emissions. I honestly think at this time they are solely looking at actual emission hardware like cats. Eventually they'll be going after everything. But that will take some time.

And I think they also need to be very careful how they approach this. There are many companies and people who have made a living off this industry. They have employees and such. Eliminating this industry puts all those people out of work. And in most cases, it isn't like they'll be able to go get a second career after they spent decades becoming masters in this field. A lot of them have invested large sums of money in tuning equipment, dynos, upgrading the software, parts, machines, etc. If the industry gets cancelled then it isn't like those items are refundable. So this will need to be a delicate approach. But then again, I said it before, we all knew these days were coming.

The day is coming they will inspect every car like in the old days when i was a kid in FL.

[CHASLT1]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

I'm not sure gas prices will remain high forever. Remember the last time gas was like $4.00/gal even here in Ohio? Everyone ran to economy cars and hybrids, they ran that good old "Cash For Clunkers" program, and then gas prices came right back down. Everyone traded in their Civic for a Suburban again.

There will be tons of V8's for sale cheap once gas is over $5 a gal and plenty of big tank trucks and SUV's being sold for nothing not far off.