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Old 08-04-2020, 04:57 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Petrol Head View Post
There are just certain cars in price ranges where the vast majority of the customers for those cars really don’t care about fuel economy. At. All.

Do people who buy a $130,000 S-Class Mercedes REALLY care? They’d be perfectly fine with the 6.3 liter V8 that came in the old 1960s Grosser which got about 8 mpg.

The Camaro to me is one of those cars. If you feel the desire to even glance at your fuel average for any reason other than to laugh you’re doing it wrong.

If you’re not in the teens you’re doing it wrong.
Well, probably not that extreme.

You probably don't care because fuel is cheaper in the US. Try the West Coast BC, Canada prices, which can go above like CAN$5.50 per gallon.

Remember that ponies and Corvettes are supposed to be every man's "supercar", so being somewhat good on gas definitely helps. Now if we are talking about a Ferrari, sure, toss the fuel economy consideration completely out of the window.

I personally wouldn't have a huge problem with the difference AFM/DFM will make, but I wouldn't say I don't care at all; if the car gets like half the MPG it currently does on EPA tests(8 MPG city/12 MPG highway), yeah I probably would look at something else.
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Old 08-04-2020, 05:24 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by ember1205 View Post
OP specifically stated he has only seen the V4 indicator show up in online videos, never in his own car.

Yes, the ENGINES have AFM mechanical components in all cars, but the manuals lack the AFM actuators on the exhaust to create the necessary back pressure for when the car would drop to V4 mode. So, the computer has it tuned out.
I must have completely skipped over that he said he saw that in videos.

while I agree that the afm actuators will help create back pressure. I dont agree they are needed for it to work. They do quiet the engine down also. When afm kicks in the throttle body opens up. I believe that they use the valves to help mask the sound so it is less noticeable. I may be wrong, but I do know its really easy to turn the afm valves off by themselves in the tune and not affect the afm from kicking in.
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Old 08-04-2020, 06:28 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by az4783054 View Post
GM calls cylinder deactivation DFM for it's newer production 5.3L and 6.2L vehicles now. Some early (conflicting) articles said the ZL1 Camaro A10 has the DFM.

Quote: "Dynamic Fuel Management (DFM), otherwise known as Dynamic Skip Fire, is a General Motors engine technology that shuts down the engine's cylinders to optimize power delivery and efficiency. DFM is an improvement to Active Fuel Management, which it succeeds."


Adding to the confusion, RANGE TECHNOLOGY says their module will work with the DFM in 2020 camaro with 6.2L but doesn't actually specify ZL1/LT4/A10.


Here's an article on DFM...
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...el-management/
There are two types of cylinder deactivation currently being used in GM vehicles.
  • Active Fuel Management (AFM)
  • Dynamic Fuel Management (DFM)
AFM deactivates the same 4 cylinders (2 for the 3.6L). It’s the system used on Camaro, Corvette, and 2018 and earlier GM trucks and 2020 utilities and a bunch of other vehicles.

DFM is a completely different animal. So far it is only used on V8 engines on some 2019 and newer Silverados and Sierras and will also be offered on the Tahoe and Yukon. It can deactivate as many as 7 cylinders at a time, depending on situation and conditions. From my understanding of it, each cylinder makes a “fire or not” decision on every engine cycle.
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Old 08-04-2020, 07:55 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az4783054 View Post
GM calls cylinder deactivation DFM for it's newer production 5.3L and 6.2L vehicles now. Some early (conflicting) articles said the ZL1 Camaro A10 has the DFM.

Quote: "Dynamic Fuel Management (DFM), otherwise known as Dynamic Skip Fire, is a General Motors engine technology that shuts down the engine's cylinders to optimize power delivery and efficiency. DFM is an improvement to Active Fuel Management, which it succeeds."


Adding to the confusion, RANGE TECHNOLOGY says their module will work with the DFM in 2020 camaro with 6.2L but doesn't actually specify ZL1/LT4/A10.


Here's an article on DFM...
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...el-management/

I was reading someones comment on YT a while back claiming that DFM uses the rockers instead of the lifters to deactivate the cylinders. I'm not sure if they knew what they were talking about or not though.

My opinion is any cylinder deactivation is junk. It's just done to fool the EPA that it gets better MPG's than it does. Traditionally the SBC is one of the most reliable motors ever. You take a GEN3 or GEN4 LS based motor not setup with AFM, leave it mostly stock, keep up with its maintenance, and don't go out of your way to abuse the crap out of it and it "should" give you several hundreds of thousands of miles of mostly trouble free. I just wish us non-AFM using M6 guys didn't have to get the AFM hardware in our motors.

IMO AFM has done a lot to hurt the reputation of the SBC. How many people are getting 200-250K trouble free miles out of them without have to do things like lifter replacements, etc? For example people on longer think of Silverado (or Sierra) as the most dependable, longest lasting trucks on the road. Back in the day they were built like a rock. They were strong as they could be. Like a rock, nothing ever got to them. Whether right or wrong people now think of them as having motors that will happily destroy a motor, or take out the cam, or at least require serious/costly maintenance before 100K miles.
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Old 08-05-2020, 02:56 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by JROC View Post

My opinion is any cylinder deactivation is junk. It's just done to fool the EPA that it gets better MPG's than it does. Traditionally the SBC is one of the most reliable motors ever. You take a GEN3 or GEN4 LS based motor not setup with AFM, leave it mostly stock, keep up with its maintenance, and don't go out of your way to abuse the crap out of it and it "should" give you several hundreds of thousands of miles of mostly trouble free. I just wish us non-AFM using M6 guys didn't have to get the AFM hardware in our motors.
Except it does work while cruising - which is the only time it's active. It's not fooling anyone. Be thankful you dont have stupid start-stop like all the euro cars.

Quote:
IMO AFM has done a lot to hurt the reputation of the SBC. How many people are getting 200-250K trouble free miles out of them without have to do things like lifter replacements, etc? For example people on longer think of Silverado (or Sierra) as the most dependable, longest lasting trucks on the road. Back in the day they were built like a rock. They were strong as they could be. Like a rock, nothing ever got to them. Whether right or wrong people now think of them as having motors that will happily destroy a motor, or take out the cam, or at least require serious/costly maintenance before 100K miles.
were they built like a rock or are you just having a rosey recollection of the past? I've had 3rd and 4th gen v8 camaros and 10 years and less they leaked oil, ate starters and had crappy thermostats that would fail and lead to overheating and stupid key chip based security systems that would randomly lock you out of your car for 40 minutes. Not to mention the engines weighed more and produced less power. Way less than 200k miles on them.

most of the drivetrain problems from newer vehicles from chevy are transmission related, rather than engine related.

Considering the likelihood you are going to drive your car to 200,000 miles is literally low single digit% (https://www.iseecars.com/longest-las...s-study#v=2019), it seems a bit of an exaggeration to use it as a measure for reliability that matters.

if it can do 10 years without requiring invasive surgery, i'd consider it a winner. Especially at the power levels todays cars put out and their efficiency in doing it.

As soon as the consumables and such start coming into time to replace (suspension parts and gaskets etc) it just makes more sense to buy new. The 10 year newer car is gonna have much better performance, efficiency and tech and not stink like farts that the car payment is worth not throwing money into an ever growing pit that your current car is fast going to become.
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Old 08-05-2020, 06:25 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by cellsafemode View Post
were they built like a rock or are you just having a rosey recollection of the past? I've had 3rd and 4th gen v8 camaros and 10 years and less they leaked oil, ate starters and had crappy thermostats that would fail and lead to overheating and stupid key chip based security systems that would randomly lock you out of your car for 40 minutes. Not to mention the engines weighed more and produced less power. Way less than 200k miles on them.

most of the drivetrain problems from newer vehicles from chevy are transmission related, rather than engine related.

Considering the likelihood you are going to drive your car to 200,000 miles is literally low single digit% (https://www.iseecars.com/longest-las...s-study#v=2019), it seems a bit of an exaggeration to use it as a measure for reliability that matters.

if it can do 10 years without requiring invasive surgery, i'd consider it a winner. Especially at the power levels todays cars put out and their efficiency in doing it.

As soon as the consumables and such start coming into time to replace (suspension parts and gaskets etc) it just makes more sense to buy new. The 10 year newer car is gonna have much better performance, efficiency and tech and not stink like farts that the car payment is worth not throwing money into an ever growing pit that your current car is fast going to become.
If you go to any used car magazine or website and look at any car with a Chevy small block it's not unusual to see well over 200k miles on an engine that's only ever had it's oil changed regularly.

The chip has nothing to do with the engine reliability. That's GM's electronics divisions under Delco/Delphi you want to complain about. Those early Gen I Pass Key systems were garbage on many GM cars.

A well maintained engine should easily get over 200k miles. I've had cars with 225k on the clock and the valve cover has never been off. No leaks, no burning oil, smooth and full power.

If AFM affects the long term reliability and performance of the LT1 that's an unreasonable and completely uncalled for addition on GM's part. Right now I have a daily driver and don't drive the Camaro to work but in the future I may decide to make it an every day driver. If it comes to that I fully expect that my engine will run 200k miles without the requirement of a major repair. Theromostat? Yeah, that's not major, especially on these cars. You can get it for $50 and change it yourself in 5 minutes. That's part of what makes the Chevy small block great.
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Old 08-05-2020, 08:55 AM   #63
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You're looking at 1-5% of what amounts to all that were made and applying it to represent all of them. Basically for every one you see in that used car mag, there are at least 95 that will never ever make it to 200k for various reasons.

200k mile engines are not the norm. They are very much an exception. Not so much because the engine can't do it but because it's not usually worth keeping the rest of the car alive around the engine by then.

It's going to be a while before 2016+ Camaro's have more than a couple cars up in the mileage you are looking at or age range where extra long term reliability can be sampled. It will be interesting to see if afm actually matters as much as you think... But I think in the range 90% of the cars will ever live (down in the 100k -150k range), it'll be fine
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Old 08-05-2020, 09:08 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by cellsafemode View Post
You're looking at 1-5% of what amounts to all that were made and applying it to represent all of them. Basically for every one you see in that used car mag, there are at least 95 that will never ever make it to 200k for various reasons.

200k mile engines are not the norm. They are very much an exception. Not so much because the engine can't do it but because it's not usually worth keeping the rest of the car alive around the engine by then.
5%???? You seriously have not a clue of what you're talking about then. There's no use in even trying to hold any kind of intelligent, thoughtful discussion with you if you think only 5% of the CSBs are still around.
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Old 08-05-2020, 09:31 AM   #65
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Except it does work while cruising - which is the only time it's active. It's not fooling anyone. Be thankful you dont have stupid start-stop like all the euro cars.
What do you mean it works? You mean it improves MPG? I doubt it. The best MPG's from GM vehices I've seen are from vehicles without AFM. I don't care what anyone says my LS1 Camaro got better MPG than my GEN6 SS. What AFM equipped vehicles do you know of that gets better MPG than a C6 Vette including a Z06 with 505 BHP from a 7L motor with a 4.125" bore? The reason I feel that most GEN3 and up SBC's get decent to good MPG's is largely due to the gearing GM uses in their vehicles. Notice the M6 cars with the Vipers overdrive gears gets the best MPG's. They gear them longlegged. When a large V8 barely has a load on it pulling a car/truck down the highway it's not going to burn a ton of fuel.

If you mean that AFM works as the system activates then sure it works until it doesn't. Cigarettes help calm nerves until they lead to premature health issues. Alcohol helps with depression, but then you start getting liver problems. Start/stop is no more stupid than AFM. Would you rather fix a starter that goes out or have a lifter go bad and potentially take the motor with it? But yes start/stop is a stupid idea as well. We can agree on that.

AFM isn't even a necessary evil as it doesn't help noticeably with MPG's. It's unnecessary other then to help get certain certifications or exemptions.


Quote:
were they built like a rock or are you just having a rosey recollection of the past? I've had 3rd and 4th gen v8 camaros and 10 years and less they leaked oil, ate starters and had crappy thermostats that would fail and lead to overheating and stupid key chip based security systems that would randomly lock you out of your car for 40 minutes. Not to mention the engines weighed more and produced less power. Way less than 200k miles on them.

most of the drivetrain problems from newer vehicles from chevy are transmission related, rather than engine related.

Considering the likelihood you are going to drive your car to 200,000 miles is literally low single digit% (https://www.iseecars.com/longest-las...s-study#v=2019), it seems a bit of an exaggeration to use it as a measure for reliability that matters.

if it can do 10 years without requiring invasive surgery, i'd consider it a winner. Especially at the power levels todays cars put out and their efficiency in doing it.

As soon as the consumables and such start coming into time to replace (suspension parts and gaskets etc) it just makes more sense to buy new. The 10 year newer car is gonna have much better performance, efficiency and tech and not stink like farts that the car payment is worth not throwing money into an ever growing pit that your current car is fast going to become.
WTF are you talking about? First like a rock was a Silverado ad campaign. (But yes it was me joking) Not a Camaro built on a platform that dates back to the late 60's ad campaign. Generally trucks are considered to be more reliable vehicles than performance cars are. For example a LS1 alternator is an overheating POS, but the truck alternators from those equivalent years weren't. Replacing an alternator or thermostat once in ten years of ownership sucks, but is not that big of a deal. $100, and an afternoon after work and you're back in action. Fixing a collapsed lifter, (assuming it didn't take out the cam or a motor) or fixing a water pump that's mounted inside the timing cover that decides to take a dump right in your crank case, (Ford/Chrysler) are big issues that in best case scenarios are going to cost $1500+ to fix (maybe less if you can do the repair yourself) if they don't take anything else out with them. Dropping valves (LS7) is a big deal. Putting new seals in the rearend of a 16 year old truck because the old seals got old and dry and started leaking isn't a big deal.

I don't look at 200K miles as anything amazing. 300K is where you should start bragging about reliability from a motor that you don't have to open.

Last edited by JROC; 08-05-2020 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:24 AM   #66
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There are just certain cars in price ranges where the vast majority of the customers for those cars really don’t care about fuel economy. At. All.

Do people who buy a $130,000 S-Class Mercedes REALLY care? They’d be perfectly fine with the 6.3 liter V8 that came in the old 1960s Grosser which got about 8 mpg.

The Camaro to me is one of those cars. If you feel the desire to even glance at your fuel average for any reason other than to laugh you’re doing it wrong.

If you’re not in the teens you’re doing it wrong.
While I understand where you're coming from, the reality is that "most" people on the planet don't buy those kinds of cars nor do they have the inclination (let alone the wallet) to not care about fuel economy. High MPG's sells cars and justifiy the EPA's existence.

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Except it does work while cruising - which is the only time it's active. It's not fooling anyone. Be thankful you dont have stupid start-stop like all the euro cars.
Huh? My Silverado drops into V4 mode around town all the time.

As for the start-stop... You mean like half of the Chevy sedans? That crap drives me insane. I let the car roll at lights just to defeat it.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:41 AM   #67
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While I understand where you're coming from, the reality is that "most" people on the planet don't buy those kinds of cars nor do they have the inclination (let alone the wallet) to not care about fuel economy. High MPG's sells cars and justifiy the EPA's existence.
My point was that, maybe not to the extent of an S-Class buyer, but a Camaro SS buyer most likely isn't concerned with fuel economy. If it gets 15-20 mpg I think everyone is happy. Anything more is a bonus. The car companies should quit putting so much money and effort into making cars that don't need to be that economical for that particular vehicle's customer base, and instead put that extra money into making cars for people who DO care about fuel economy that much more efficient.

The company can then maintain their fleet CAFE average without dumb, extraneous, frivolous garbage like AFM and CAGS.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:44 AM   #68
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My point was that, maybe not to the extent of an S-Class buyer, but a Camaro SS buyer most likely isn't concerned with fuel economy. If it gets 15-20 mpg I think everyone is happy. Anything more is a bonus. The car companies should quit putting so much money and effort into making cars that don't need to be that economical for that particular vehicle's customer base, and instead put that extra money into making cars for people who DO care about fuel economy that much more efficient.

The company can then maintain their fleet CAFE average without dumb, extraneous, frivolous garbage like AFM and CAGS.
In the case of the Camaro, with very low volume in sales, the overall fleet numbers would likely not drop by much. What happens, though, when you do that to the Corvette?

The problem, too, is that it isn't just the fleet numbers any more that have to be taken into account. Individual vehicles have much more stringent numbers to be attained than ever before to avoid gas guzzler taxes (which is complete BS as it's nothing more than "buying a carbon offset" which is a total joke).
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:49 AM   #69
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5%???? You seriously have not a clue of what you're talking about then. There's no use in even trying to hold any kind of intelligent, thoughtful discussion with you if you think only 5% of the CSBs are still around.
The engine could be around, stuck with the rest of the car sitting in a junkyard.

He isn't wrong in the sense that yeah, if you live in the snow belt, most of your car will be consumed by rust before 200k miles, so the engine longevity really doesn't matter much in this case.

In these modern cars, a lot of other stuff can fail before that and before 200k miles, most people will get rid of the car for those other issues.

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What do you mean it works? You mean it improves MPG? I doubt it. The best MPG's from GM vehices I've seen are from vehicles without AFM. I don't care what anyone says my LS1 Camaro got better MPG than my GEN6 SS. What AFM equipped vehicle do you know of that gets better a C6 Vette including a Z06 with 505 BHP from a 7L motor with a 4.125" bore? The reason I feel that most GEN3 and up SBC get decent to good MPG's is largely die to the gearing they use in the vehicle. Notice the M6 cars with the Vipers overdrive gears gets the best MPG's. They gear them longlegged. When a large V8 barely has a load on it pulling something down the highway it's not going to burn a ton of fuel.

...



AFM isn't even a necessary evil as it doesn't help noticeably with MPG's. It's unnecessary other then to help get certain certifications or exemptions.
In theory, it should if you drive a lot of highway. How much in real life, that I can't say.

Also, LS1 is a smaller engine that made less power... Hard to compare to the LT1 which has about 10% extra displacement and 100+ more horsepower.

Corvettes are light cars with good aerodynamics. Again, not a good comparison to trucks and even the Camaro(heavier with a blockier front).

BTW, I will probably get smack for this, but I am gonna say it: I don't mind Start/Stop. Some of them are executed well. Went on a road trip with some buddies and we had a Grand Cherokee V6, and the Start/Stop is undetectable. Now, it's not something I particularly want in a sports car, but IIRC Euro sports cars like the M4 has a way to permanently disable it.

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Old 08-05-2020, 10:56 AM   #70
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In theory, it should if you drive a lot of highway. How much in real life, that I can't say.
For me, the value on the highway is zero in my truck. Driving a big, squared off vehicle at 65-75MPH on roadways with lots of ups and downs to them, it doesn't really demonstrate any actual value. Many areas that are extremely flat will see benefit from it, though, providing you stay at 65 or under.
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