[95TA - The Beast]

That is the point you don't see, it WILL NOT increase power AT ALL even if you increase flow.

The ECM can see how much power is being made, it then reduces the available power down to what it is programmed to. That is the WHOLE point. It is programmed for a given power output and will reduce output to that level.

GM and the rest have gone that route to reduce/eliminate warranty claims because of people modifying the cars after purchase.

The point is, do whatever you want, the computer will reduce power output to what is programmed. That is why you NEED a tune.

If you notice, not a single other person is arguing against this fact. Everyone else KNOWS that is the way these cars are set up.

[arpad_m]

^^^

OP, listen to this man, he is telling the truth (one last time, I presume, there's no point in belaboring the point any further)

[427]

Is it possible he's wrong?

Every GM car using a current ECU will keep the engine tuning right for the conditions. My car has more power at sea level than it does at 3500 feet of elevation. When it drives into elevation the mass air meter and baro sensor are seeing the change in air consumption and adjusting fueling, this is way better than the old carb days! If I can make a mechanical change that adds some air flow the mass meter will keep the air fuel stable as it was designed to do. My race is at 3500 feet, so my car is not making 275hp, it's making 12-14% less because the airflow is reduced by the altitude. If I increase the airflow by the 12-14% the ecu will "see" the air entering the engine as it passes the mass meter, then it will deliver the fuel I need for all the 275HP. I believe the confusion might be in people thinking I'm attempting to increase the power above what the engine originally made, that could get into many over torque models made for protecting the engine-clutch-trans-rear axle. I came into this forum looking for specific 6th gen info on bolt on mechanical parts, I have a good understanding of how the engine and ECU work.
Kurt

Originally Posted by arpad_m

^^^

OP, listen to this man, he is telling the truth (one last time, I presume, there's no point in belaboring the point any further)

[95TA - The Beast]

You are wrong in "assuming" that somehow you aren't making more power because of air density. The computer keeps track of that and is programmed for a given power level for a given air density as well.

Basically you need to change the tune. It is tuned for the power you are seeing at the elevation you are running at. Regardless of what you do you will not increase any more since it is programmed to give you want you already have.

The air box is NOT a restriction. This is known fact.

The intercooler is NOT a restriction. Again, this is known fact.

Once again, the engine combination CAN and DOES make more power than what they have programmed. Even in 100% stock form and function it is 100% capable of producing more than the factory has programmed it for.

GM programmed it for the power you are seeing, nothing more. If it is set at the air density you have to produce the power you make, ANY mods that you make are not going to change that "requested torque output" that the computer is looking for. Only a tune will do that.

Now, did GM get too aggressive and pull too much power out for the density you are at? More than likely as they like to be "highly conservative" in regards to keeping the engine out of knock (since knock with non-forged pistons and rods basically means broken parts and warranty claims).

I can see where you are grasping at straws because you really don't want to do a tune. But, you will find out that you won't produce anything more than the computer will allow in all cases. That is the key, IN ALL CASES.

Modern car computer systems are 1000% more complex and involved than anything from the previous decade.

[427]

So when cars race in high altitude that don't have computers what slows them down
I'm not changing the airbox, I like the design. I'm removing the intake muffler/silencer, it's the tube that connects the airbox-turbo.



Kurt

Originally Posted by 95TA - The Beast

You are wrong in "assuming" that somehow you aren't making more power because of air density. The computer keeps track of that and is programmed for a given power level for a given air density as well.

Basically you need to change the tune. It is tuned for the power you are seeing at the elevation you are running at. Regardless of what you do you will not increase any more since it is programmed to give you want you already have.

The air box is NOT a restriction. This is known fact.

The intercooler is NOT a restriction. Again, this is known fact.

Once again, the engine combination CAN and DOES make more power than what they have programmed. Even in 100% stock form and function it is 100% capable of producing more than the factory has programmed it for.

GM programmed it for the power you are seeing, nothing more. If it is set at the air density you have to produce the power you make, ANY mods that you make are not going to change that "requested torque output" that the computer is looking for. Only a tune will do that.

Now, did GM get too aggressive and pull too much power out for the density you are at? More than likely as they like to be "highly conservative" in regards to keeping the engine out of knock (since knock with non-forged pistons and rods basically means broken parts and warranty claims).

I can see where you are grasping at straws because you really don't want to do a tune. But, you will find out that you won't produce anything more than the computer will allow in all cases. That is the key, IN ALL CASES.

Modern car computer systems are 1000% more complex and involved than anything from the previous decade.

[Spaceme1117]

427, yes, any car will make more power in denser air; max power will be sea level.

But that max power at sea level is limited by GM and any mods that increase air flow will be adjusted down usually by lowering the boost on a turbo car by the ECU to the factory power levels.

Go to higher altitude, the ECU will try to compensate with more boost but only to the max GM boost limits and when the max boost cannot provide enough air, fueling will be reduced and you have less power.

YOU NEED A TUNE FOR MORE POWER especially if you add mods.

Listen to the people here.

If you don’t want to listen to the advice being given, why are you even posting?

[427]

I'm posting hoping for answers to the question I asked, have any parts shown reliable gains of 20hp? Again, I have a good handle on engine/ECU ability, but I don't normally work with 6th gen Camaro 4cyl engines so I'm not familiar with parts on this platform. I bought this particular car based on cost so I could keep moving my license forward while I finish my more race oriented car.


Kurt

Originally Posted by Spaceme1117

427, yes, any car will make more power in denser air; max power will be sea level.

But that max power at sea level is limited by GM and any mods that increase air flow will be adjusted down usually by lowering the boost on a turbo car by the ECU to the factory power levels.

Go to higher altitude, the ECU will try to compensate with more boost but only to the max GM boost limits and when the max boost cannot provide enough air, fueling will be reduced and you have less power.

YOU NEED A TUNE FOR MORE POWER especially if you add mods.

Listen to the people here.

If you don’t want to listen to the advice being given, why are you even posting?

[95TA - The Beast]

And you got the answer you are looking for.

You won't see ANYTHING without a tune. The stock tune is power-limiting.

[427]

That's an answer to a question I didn't ask, and it's wrong


Kurt

Originally Posted by 95TA - The Beast

And you got the answer you are looking for.

You won't see ANYTHING without a tune. The stock tune is power-limiting.

[foshjowler]

r/confidentlyincorrect

[RedonBlackRS]

A decent tune will cost less than most bolt-ons.
OP does have a point with the computer working to account for altitude by increasing boost. The problem comes with the intercooler. The turbo can be turned up to cram more of that thin air into the engine, but can't do squat about the air crossing the intercooler. That charge air isn't being cooled properly at altitude to truly match the power at sea level.
If OP is absolutely against a tune to recoup the lost power at altitude, an upgraded intercooler will be the best bolt-on to help him out.

[427]

My guess is intercooler also because I would guess I'm working that pretty hard as I stay full throttle for 99% of the 20+ minute run. I did add hood louvers so my airflow across the radiators is increased a bunch over the stock configuration. I'm taking off the muffler/silencer on the turbo inlet because a friend that does turbochargers says those are bad at causing depression at the front of the turbo, and I've seen that hurt some of the V8 stuff I do in my day job. I'm also adding a transmission cooler as that was 278F at the end of the first 59 mile run. I attached a picture in the canyons on the morning run.


Kurt

Originally Posted by RedonBlackRS

A decent tune will cost less than most bolt-ons.
OP does have a point with the computer working to account for altitude by increasing boost. The problem comes with the intercooler. The turbo can be turned up to cram more of that thin air into the engine, but can't do squat about the air crossing the intercooler. That charge air isn't being cooled properly at altitude to truly match the power at sea level.
If OP is absolutely against a tune to recoup the lost power at altitude, an upgraded intercooler will be the best bolt-on to help him out.

[427]

I see your from Raleigh, I lived in Clayton NC for 6 years. Great place with lots of curvy roads! I still own a house in Clayton.



Kurt

Originally Posted by foshjowler

r/confidentlyincorrect

[Davescamaro]

Heck you guys are not too terribly far from me as well. Cleveland, NC.
The trifecta standard tune is around the 400-500 price range and you get 41 more hp from factory without changing a part from oem. Plus they have transparency mode to where the dealers can't see if its tuned or not.