[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I mean this sincerely. What have you run in your car?

I’m pushing back because I know what a stock SS will run in the hands of an amateur at the track. I’m not a drag racer and my first pass beat the Hot Rod time. Actually, any magazine time.

The SS has been out 3-1/2 years. 12.3 won’t even get you a spot on the Camaro6 fast list that has 30 entries. They aren’t all liers. Meanwhile, we’re still waiting to see how the GT* does in the real world...

So... Your say the SS is a 12.3 to 12.4 car gets laughed at. We aren’t new to this world ...like you appear

I still think you're quoting the wrong person. I said none of those things.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Again, I'm talking about what the average onlooker would notice or say. And for the record, not many people who watch these cars will even consider what they do in auto-X. They're gonna see you get toasted and that is what they will react to. 100% of people out there would never expect a Hellcat to beat anything in auto-X. I could probably beat a Hellcat on a moped around a track and nobody would bat an eye. But if you show up somewhere in a $67K Shelby and get beat by some kid in a $32K GT then no matter what you say about the Shelby being this or that, you're gonna look bad.

To prove my point, it's kinda like what you said about the R beating cars that cost twice as much. Do you think anybody will take into account that those cars cost as much as they do because they have tons of luxury, better quality materials, way more options as standard, comfort features, and better value retention? No. They will see an expensive BMW getting beat by a Mustang and that is all they'll see. So everything you said just proves exactly my point. That an expensive car getting beat by a cheaper car will always look bad. And the Mustangs are quite notorious for that this Generation.

Not for nothin but these companies aren't sandbagging their cars or posting the slowest runs. They're all out there making ghost runs that nobody else can duplicate and they're making money hand over fist. I'm not saying shit that just comes off the top of my head. I'm telling you what they're actually doing. Evans posted a hero run that nobody else could do and he got more attention from that than anything he has done in his entire life. Steeda, American Muscle, LMR, they did the same thing and look at how many people bought their "Track Packages" and this or that. They are doing exactly what I said they are and it is working for them. So how can you disagree when that is what they're all doing?

This is all in good fun, bench racing nothing is meant to come of as serious or have a tone lol.

Answer the question. I put the Hellcat in a venue it is not expected to do well in, because the Hellcat was not set up for turns. Your excuse is no one expects a hellcat to do well in a auto-x. The GT350/R is not set up to do well at a drag strip, yet you continually want to put it in that arena. You say it is ok to expect a Hellcat to do poorly at an Auto-X but it's not ok that the GT350R is poor at the drag strip?

Your basically bringing the wrong tool to do a job, and saying it's a bad tool. I mean, I could smoke a brisket on my Weber Charcoal grill, but it would turn out much better in a smoker. Does that make my charcoal grill a bad grill?


By that logic we can all say the Jeep TRACKhawk is a failure because it isn't as offroad capable as the Jeep TRAILhawk

I agree they are posting their best runs, but the idea that are "cheating" or its the rental tracks or they are chasing to get hero runs all of this other stuff to get these times is what I say makes no sense. don't know any GM or dodge shops but would it make sense for them to say they have the fastest sotck SS or SRT or ZL1 or Hellcat? Or strap them on the dyno and they are dynoing higher. From a business stand point no that makes no sense.

Lets just say you are fairly new to performance cars and you want some minor bolt ons and a mail order tune.

Company A makes a base line run of 12.00 and then with their tune package goes 11.80s.

Company B makes a baseline run of 12.30 and then with their tune package goes 11.80s.

Which company looks like they have a better package? That is why i say a speed shop chasing to get "hero" times makes no sense.

They are going to make money hand over fist either way.

[rocket403]

Well Put Shaffe

[whiteboyblues2001]

Is anyone ever going to talk about the impending GT500 again (I thought this was a GT500 vs. ZL1 thread)? Or are we just going to discuss the negligable difference in 1/4 mile times of cars that are not, and do not compete with the GT500?

It has all been said too many times, but the GT* is a smidge faster than an SS. The PP1 setup is complete crap in the twisties, the PP2 helps settle the car a bit (but not nearly enough), and the tire gave it a better laptime than the 1LE, and pretty much all the above overheat. The Coyote revs higher, and the LT1 has more torque and power throughout the RPM range. The Camaro has crappy visibility and trunk opening, yet the Mustang has the visibility and seating position of an Accord. The A8 has a shudder issue, the Mustang has too many issues to list. Oh, and let's not forget the Mustang sells better (heaven foribd we ever stop talking about that).

My point being, this is all crap we already know. But what we DON'T know, is what the GT500 is going to bring...

Will it have handling characteristics of the GT350R? Or the really crappy handling of the rest of the Mustangs? Will it beat the ZLE on a road course? Will it overheat like the rest of the mustangs (minus the GT350s WITH the coolers), or did they screw that up again? Will the power be enough to beat a RedEye? Will it mysteriously burn a quart of oil every 500 miles without anyone knowing where the heck it's going? Will it have the BBQ tick? What will the price be? What will ADMs be? What kind of idiot pays ADM?

You see, there are many other topics to talk about than the same crap over and over again....

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You're missing the point. They ran 25 passes with a stock vehicle with no prep and no signs of overheating (looking at you, PP2)

Jeff Lutz as the driver on the drag strip best pass was 12:20s. That is all the car has in it. Multiple automotive reviews indicate the same outcome. Why is this difficult to understand.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Jeff Lutz as the driver on the drag strip best pass was 12:20s. That is all the car has in it. Multiple automotive reviews indicate the same outcome. Why is this difficult to understand.

Unprepped surface hot lapping with A/C on SS runs 12.2. Unprepped surface, GT* loses to a 13 sec Kia. Do I need to post that video again?

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Is anyone ever going to talk about the impending GT500 again (I thought this was a GT500 vs. ZL1 thread)? Or are we just going to discuss the negligable difference in 1/4 mile times of cars that are not, and do not compete with the GT500?

It has all been said too many times, but the GT* is a smidge faster than an SS. The PP1 setup is complete crap in the twisties, the PP2 helps settle the car a bit (but not nearly enough), and the tire gave it a better laptime than the 1LE, and pretty much all the above overheat. The Coyote revs higher, and the LT1 has more torque and power throughout the RPM range. The Camaro has crappy visibility and trunk opening, yet the Mustang has the visibility and seating position of an Accord. The A8 has a shudder issue, the Mustang has too many issues to list. Oh, and let's not forget the Mustang sells better (heaven foribd we ever stop talking about that).

My point being, this is all crap we already know. But what we DON'T know, is what the GT500 is going to bring...

Will it have handling characteristics of the GT350R? Or the really crappy handling of the rest of the Mustangs? Will it beat the ZLE on a road course? Will it overheat like the rest of the mustangs (minus the GT350s WITH the coolers), or did they screw that up again? Will the power be enough to beat a RedEye? Will it mysteriously burn a quart of oil every 500 miles without anyone knowing where the heck it's going? Will it have the BBQ tick? What will the price be? What will ADMs be? What kind of idiot pays ADM?

You see, there are many other topics to talk about than the same crap over and over again....

I would assume the GT500 carbon package SHOULD handle like the 350R. If it doesn't then what's the point of having the package at all?

Ford has had some engine issues lately and I don't think the 500 will be immune.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

This is all in good fun, bench racing nothing is meant to come of as serious or have a tone lol.

Answer the question. I put the Hellcat in a venue it is not expected to do well in, because the Hellcat was not set up for turns. Your excuse is no one expects a hellcat to do well in a auto-x. The GT350/R is not set up to do well at a drag strip, yet you continually want to put it in that arena. You say it is ok to expect a Hellcat to do poorly at an Auto-X but it's not ok that the GT350R is poor at the drag strip?

Your basically bringing the wrong tool to do a job, and saying it's a bad tool. I mean, I could smoke a brisket on my Weber Charcoal grill, but it would turn out much better in a smoker. Does that make my charcoal grill a bad grill?


By that logic we can all say the Jeep TRACKhawk is a failure because it isn't as offroad capable as the Jeep TRAILhawk

Shaffe, nobody is going to watch a Hellcat get out-cornered by anything and then think badly about it. Nobody is going to watch a Trackhawk not be able to take an offroad path in the forest and think badly about it. But if people see someone in a $67K GT350R get beat by a kid in a $30K base model GT, then they WILL look down at the Shelby owner. That is just how it goes. You can debate it and try to rationalize it all you want. They're gonna see a kid with a cheap Mustang toast some dude with money in the top tier highest Mustang available right now and not one person is going to say "oh well the GT350R isn't built for that". If anything you'll look like a sore loser for saying that. It looks bad. No $60K and up Mustang with a "Shelby" badge on it should lose at anything to any other Mustang regardless of what it was built for.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Lets just say you are fairly new to performance cars and you want some minor bolt ons and a mail order tune.

Company A makes a base line run of 12.00 and then with their tune package goes 11.80s.

Company B makes a baseline run of 12.30 and then with their tune package goes 11.80s.

Which company looks like they have a better package? That is why i say a speed shop chasing to get "hero" times makes no sense.

They are going to make money hand over fist either way.

Again the reality is that not one of these companies are doing any of these things that you claim makes sense. They are claiming the absolute best times and ghost runs that nobody can duplicate. And then they throw bolt-ons at it and say "oh we can hit 10s with minor bolt-ons" or "our x-package will make this a 10 second car". And people buy these packages...incidentally they aren't hitting those times with those packages either but they are buying them. So what you are saying is the exact opposite of what we have seen all these companies do for the past year and a half. So how can you argue it when not one of them is doing what you say would make sense? They aren't sandbagging their cars or running 12.3s and then saying their "X-package" will get you an 11.9...they're claiming the fastest times and then saying that their packs and this or that will make it a low 11 or high 10 sec car. And they have these kids on YT and FB and every social media outlet thinking that a base GT with minor bolt-ons is competition for $70K Hellcats and Redeyes and ZL1s and Z06s. They are selling the dream to these kids and they're making money hand over fist. Show me one company that did any of what you say makes soo much sense.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Is anyone ever going to talk about the impending GT500 again (I thought this was a GT500 vs. ZL1 thread)? Or are we just going to discuss the negligable difference in 1/4 mile times of cars that are not, and do not compete with the GT500?

It has all been said too many times, but the GT* is a smidge faster than an SS. The PP1 setup is complete crap in the twisties, the PP2 helps settle the car a bit (but not nearly enough), and the tire gave it a better laptime than the 1LE, and pretty much all the above overheat. The Coyote revs higher, and the LT1 has more torque and power throughout the RPM range. The Camaro has crappy visibility and trunk opening, yet the Mustang has the visibility and seating position of an Accord. The A8 has a shudder issue, the Mustang has too many issues to list. Oh, and let's not forget the Mustang sells better (heaven foribd we ever stop talking about that).

My point being, this is all crap we already know. But what we DON'T know, is what the GT500 is going to bring...

Will it have handling characteristics of the GT350R? Or the really crappy handling of the rest of the Mustangs? Will it beat the ZLE on a road course? Will it overheat like the rest of the mustangs (minus the GT350s WITH the coolers), or did they screw that up again? Will the power be enough to beat a RedEye? Will it mysteriously burn a quart of oil every 500 miles without anyone knowing where the heck it's going? Will it have the BBQ tick? What will the price be? What will ADMs be? What kind of idiot pays ADM?

You see, there are many other topics to talk about than the same crap over and over again....

Unfortunately Ford wants everyone to wait until 2 hours before the GT500 is available before they let out any details. We've speculated and went back and forth but there really isn't anything to even discuss anymore. I have no desire to even think about the GT500. The links I posted last week were out of boredom and just to keep the thread going but I don't even care what the hell it does or how much it costs or anything anymore. I honestly don't even know it it actually will be available any time soon. Maybe October or some shit. By the time they announce anything in detail we'll probably also know what the Vette will have. And I'm betting I'll be able to get a standard C8 Vette for cheaper than a GT500. So I can't speak for anyone else but the GT500 at this point is boring to me.

[Ethanolic]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You're missing the point. They ran 25 passes with a stock vehicle with no prep and no signs of overheating (looking at you, PP2)

James, it was a drag strip they were testing on same as the GT and overheating has never been an issue at the strip.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Shaffe, nobody is going to watch a Hellcat get out-cornered by anything and then think badly about it. Nobody is going to watch a Trackhawk not be able to take an offroad path in the forest and think badly about it. But if people see someone in a $67K GT350R get beat by a kid in a $30K base model GT, then they WILL look down at the Shelby owner. That is just how it goes. You can debate it and try to rationalize it all you want. They're gonna see a kid with a cheap Mustang toast some dude with money in the top tier highest Mustang available right now and not one person is going to say "oh well the GT350R isn't built for that". If anything you'll look like a sore loser for saying that. It looks bad. No $60K and up Mustang with a "Shelby" badge on it should lose at anything to any other Mustang regardless of what it was built for.

Again the reality is that not one of these companies are doing any of these things that you claim makes sense. They are claiming the absolute best times and ghost runs that nobody can duplicate. And then they throw bolt-ons at it and say "oh we can hit 10s with minor bolt-ons" or "our x-package will make this a 10 second car". And people buy these packages...incidentally they aren't hitting those times with those packages either but they are buying them. So what you are saying is the exact opposite of what we have seen all these companies do for the past year and a half. So how can you argue it when not one of them is doing what you say would make sense? They aren't sandbagging their cars or running 12.3s and then saying their "X-package" will get you an 11.9...they're claiming the fastest times and then saying that their packs and this or that will make it a low 11 or high 10 sec car. And they have these kids on YT and FB and every social media outlet thinking that a base GT with minor bolt-ons is competition for $70K Hellcats and Redeyes and ZL1s and Z06s. They are selling the dream to these kids and they're making money hand over fist. Show me one company that did any of what you say makes soo much sense.

How is that any different than my examples? You won't answer the question because you know it will validate my point. You keep saying it doesn't matter because those cars arent meant for that or people won't care. How is that any different than the shelby example? It is the same thing. The trackhawk example is literally the exact same example just in a different setting. Nobody should watch a Shelby get beat in the 1/4 and think bad about it because that car wasn't built for the 1/4 mile.

Just explain your logic to me. You just said it is ok for those other cars to only be good in the venues they were designed for and no one should look down on them if they don't do well in other areas but for some reason you can look down on the shelby. I am not trying to defend the Shelby, I am not trying to convince you it's a better car than you think it is. If you think it's an overpriced POS that's fine by me, you want to say its a rattle trap that drinks oil as fast gas go ahead. The only thing I don't agree with you on is how you look down it for it's 1/4 performance when it's not built for that. I just don't think that is a fair criticism is all.

To the shops, I did not deny they were posting their best times. you and a few others said they were getting hero runs that no one else was getting. Third party magazine testing verified those times as being doable. Others wanted to say the only way they could get those times was becuase it was track rental, or ideal conditions, or some behind the scenes trickery. Again 3rd party testing has validated that the times the performance shops achieved were doable.

All I was saying that from a business standpoint going out and getting hero times for a stock car does not make sense. Giving max effort to get the best time on a stock car when you want to sell performance parts doesn't make sense. What I am saying is the went out ran the cars, and just posted the best times. I am saying they didn't do any trickery or there was nothing suspicious about the times they got because that to me would make no sense.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Jeff Lutz as the driver on the drag strip best pass was 12:20s. That is all the car has in it. Multiple automotive reviews indicate the same outcome. Why is this difficult to understand.

It's difficult to understand because in the real world, non-professional drivers are doing better than 12:20. But again, the P-O-I-N-T of the article was the ability of the Camaro SS to run all day on track or strip because Chevrolet equipped it with coolers to allow it to do so.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Is anyone ever going to talk about the impending GT500 again (I thought this was a GT500 vs. ZL1 thread)? Or are we just going to discuss the negligable difference in 1/4 mile times of cars that are not, and do not compete with the GT500?

It has all been said too many times, but the GT* is a smidge faster than an SS. The PP1 setup is complete crap in the twisties, the PP2 helps settle the car a bit (but not nearly enough), and the tire gave it a better laptime than the 1LE, and pretty much all the above overheat. The Coyote revs higher, and the LT1 has more torque and power throughout the RPM range. The Camaro has crappy visibility and trunk opening, yet the Mustang has the visibility and seating position of an Accord. The A8 has a shudder issue, the Mustang has too many issues to list. Oh, and let's not forget the Mustang sells better (heaven foribd we ever stop talking about that).

My point being, this is all crap we already know. But what we DON'T know, is what the GT500 is going to bring...

Will it have handling characteristics of the GT350R? Or the really crappy handling of the rest of the Mustangs? Will it beat the ZLE on a road course? Will it overheat like the rest of the mustangs (minus the GT350s WITH the coolers), or did they screw that up again? Will the power be enough to beat a RedEye? Will it mysteriously burn a quart of oil every 500 miles without anyone knowing where the heck it's going? Will it have the BBQ tick? What will the price be? What will ADMs be? What kind of idiot pays ADM?

You see, there are many other topics to talk about than the same crap over and over again....

Thanks for this. We all needed the reality check.

Personally, I think the GT500 (non CFTP) will be more strip focused and will come close to the RedEye, but I don't see it beating it. Ford has said "700+" hp. That makes me think they are not totally certain they can claim 750+ or, more directly, 755+. 755 is the hp rating of the Corvette ZR1. Even with the weight disparity, it's hard to see a 750-ish hp taking down a 797 hp RedEye on the strip.

I think the GT500 with CFTP will be a better track dog than the GT350R, especially on long tracks. Will it clip the ZLE? I'm gonna say it depends on the track. Tracks with long straights are definitely gonna favor the GT500. How it compares to ZLE on shorter tracks will likely be a matter of gauging how well this car brakes in corners. Carbon Fiber wheels + Magnaride + their Brembo setup just might be enough to get the job done. Too close to call.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Thanks for this. We all needed the reality check.

Personally, I think the GT500 (non CFTP) will be more strip focused and will come close to the RedEye, but I don't see it beating it. Ford has said "700+" hp. That makes me think they are not totally certain they can claim 750+ or, more directly, 755+. 755 is the hp rating of the Corvette ZR1. Even with the weight disparity, it's hard to see a 750-is hp taking down a 797 hp RedEye on the strip.

I think the GT500 with CFTP will be a better track dog than the GT350R, especially on long tracks. Will it clip the ZLE? I'm gonna say it depends on the track. Tracks with long straights are definitely gonna favor the GT500. How it compares to ZLE on shorter tracks will likely be a matter of gauging how well this car brakes in corners. Carbon Fiber wheels + Magnaride + their Brembo setup just might be enough to get the job done. Too close to call.

Back on topic I think Martin is pretty fair in his guess here. The thing where the GT500 might have an advantage over the Redeye is through it's electronic wizardry and the DCT will it be able to put the power down more effectively than the Redeye and it's electornic wizardry and the A8.

I don't think the GT500 CFTP will best the ZLE. Maybe on a track where it can use it's power advantage but I would expect on a track like Laguna Seca the ZLE to still come out on top. The ZLE is just that good.