[Noize]

Dead thread fist bump again, lol.

I'm looking at an Audison Prima Forza (AP F8.9 bit) as an all in one DSP and amplifier. It's 85w RMS x 8 or bridge two channels into 260w, all into 4 ohms- a true power house with a tiny footprint. It's also super lightweight, which goes well with the 1SS 1LE mission.

But man, Audison is proud of these suckers! It's a spendy thing, and I'm having a hard time swallowing that pill.

Thought is, I could run stock speakers at first, and upgrade as I go. Someone mentioned that the floor noise in this car is high, and that's a fact that sucks for sure. But I believe this unit would be enough power to settle that issue.

Anyone run one of these? I've set up a Fix86, and it was cake. I'm hoping this wouldn't be too hard.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by Noize

Dead thread fist bump again, lol.

In reply to your previous post, I did drop Audiofrog GS25 speakers in my two dash locations in place of the stock wide-range drivers. They drop right in an include mounting tabs for the GM screw locations. They were a real improvement in sound quality, but not quantity. Just that change alone provides much better detail, much more natural high frequencies, and a modicum of soundstaging. Whereas I preferred rock while driving before, I now find myself listening to a lot more jazz, classical, and even opera. It's just way better at conveying their (typically) uncompressed, natural sounds. It's the place to start IMO, because probably 80-90% of the music is covered by their frequency range, and 6x9s in the doors aren't completely terrible.

However, there's a bit of a disconnect in the sound quality from the doors to the dash speakers, as you'd expect. I believe part of that could be mitigated by running deeper frequency range to the dash speakers - the stock speakers have 68uF caps in line with the positive frequency, and that corresponds to a 600Hz high-pass filter. I kept that in the signal path of the new speakers for obvious reasons. But the GS25s have a frequency range starting at 200Hz, so a capacitance of 150-200uF would allow it to use more of that range, and probably help cover the disconnect and add a little useful mid-bass volume with very high quality. If I were doing that over again, I'd try that higher capacitance value.

BTW, lots of people say the OE speakers are 2ohm drivers, but everything I've seen says they are 4ohm, and the dash speakers show 3.6ohm when I just put a multimeter resistance tester on them. So whereas the Bose drivers probably really are 2ohm, I think ours are all 4ohm.

Audiofrog makes a GS690 that would probably be great in the doors. I may have to find out for myself!

I'm looking at an Audison Prima Forza (AP F8.9 bit) as an all in one DSP and amplifier. It's 85w RMS x 8 or bridge two channels into 260w, all into 4 ohms- a true power house with a tiny footprint. It's also super lightweight, which goes well with the 1SS 1LE mission.

But man, Audison is proud of these suckers! It's a spendy thing, and I'm having a hard time swallowing that pill.

Thought is, I could run stock speakers at first, and upgrade as I go. Someone mentioned that the floor noise in this car is high, and that's a fact that sucks for sure. But I believe this unit would be enough power to settle that issue.

Anyone run one of these? I've set up a Fix86, and it was cake. I'm hoping this wouldn't be too hard.

That Audison looks great! That's a way higher-end version of the idea I'm trying with the Kicker KEY180.4. I'd still consider swapping out the dash speakers, and then use the amp's DSP to blend the stock door speakers with the new dash speakers with its variable crossover feature and equalizers.

FWIW, a lot of the noise floor in a stock 1LE comes from the competition-oriented Goodyears. I'm sure that some of the more street-oriented replacement tires would make a big difference in cabin noise, if/when you're ready to replace them.

[Noize]

Originally Posted by Msquared

In reply to your previous post, I did drop Audiofrog GS25 speakers in my two dash locations in place of the stock wide-range drivers. They drop right in an include mounting tabs for the GM screw locations. They were a real improvement in sound quality, but not quantity. Just that change alone provides much better detail, much more natural high frequencies, and a modicum of soundstaging. Whereas I preferred rock while driving before, I now find myself listening to a lot more jazz, classical, and even opera. It's just way better at conveying their (typically) uncompressed, natural sounds. It's the place to start IMO, because probably 80-90% of the music is covered by their frequency range, and 6x9s in the doors aren't completely terrible.

Matt, thank you so much for helpful reply! I appreciate it a lot.
I completely agree that the stock system lends itself to rock and little else. R&B, Electronica, and Jazz have ghosted from my playlist since purchasing this car. They just sound bad.

What do you think of these?
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_113XP6...C-XP6902C.html

They kind of use a "twiddler" like OEM or the Audiofrogs. I listened to them, and they were OK. They have great midbass, though.

I listened to them at my local car stereo shop, then the Audiofrogs, then back to my old standby, the Focal Access. To my ears, the Focal still sound the best, most complete, detailed, and warm without being harsh.

I might start with the amplifier and build from there. Too many choices.

However, there's a bit of a disconnect in the sound quality from the doors to the dash speakers, as you'd expect. I believe part of that could be mitigated by running deeper frequency range to the dash speakers - the stock speakers have 68uF caps in line with the positive frequency, and that corresponds to a 600Hz high-pass filter. I kept that in the signal path of the new speakers for obvious reasons. But the GS25s have a frequency range starting at 200Hz, so a capacitance of 150-200uF would allow it to use more of that range, and probably help cover the disconnect and add a little useful mid-bass volume with very high quality. If I were doing that over again, I'd try that higher capacitance value.

BTW, lots of people say the OE speakers are 2ohm drivers, but everything I've seen says they are 4ohm, and the dash speakers show 3.6ohm when I just put a multimeter resistance tester on them. So whereas the Bose drivers probably really are 2ohm, I think ours are all 4ohm.

Audiofrog makes a GS690 that would probably be great in the doors. I may have to find out for myself!

Super helpful to know the OEM speakers are closer to 4 ohm. Thanks again.

That Audison looks great! That's a way higher-end version of the idea I'm trying with the Kicker KEY180.4. I'd still consider swapping out the dash speakers, and then use the amp's DSP to blend the stock door speakers with the new dash speakers with its variable crossover feature and equalizers.

FWIW, a lot of the noise floor in a stock 1LE comes from the competition-oriented Goodyears. I'm sure that some of the more street-oriented replacement tires would make a big difference in cabin noise, if/when you're ready to replace them.

While I love good tunes, I want to preserve the track potential of the 1LE above all else. This Audison all in one is light as a feather, weighs about the same as half a gallon of gas. I think these factory Goodyears really hit a sweet spot for price and performance, and I'm not willing to give them up or replace them with something else, no matter what the cost to fidelity.

Some of the rest of the floor noise issue is amplified by the fact those 6x9s are so darned low in the doors. If my ears were in my calves, I think it would be bliss.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by Noize

Matt, thank you so much for helpful reply! I appreciate it a lot.
I completely agree that the stock system lends itself to rock and little else. R&B, Electronica, and Jazz have ghosted from my playlist since purchasing this car. They just sound bad.

What do you think of these?
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_113XP6...C-XP6902C.html

They kind of use a "twiddler" like OEM or the Audiofrogs. I listened to them, and they were OK. They have great midbass, though.

I listened to them at my local car stereo shop, then the Audiofrogs, then back to my old standby, the Focal Access. To my ears, the Focal still sound the best, most complete, detailed, and warm without being harsh.

I might start with the amplifier and build from there. Too many choices.

I wish I could tell you anything from experience, but I've never heard the Kenwoods or Focals. There's also a Morel "twiddler" that I'm sure is very good. I did read reviews of the Kenwood, and some said it was a bit harsh and unrefined, but better than stock. Compared to the AF speaker, both the Kenwood and Morel have less frequency range and are significantly less sensitive. The sensitivity was a big selling point for me when I thought I wasn't going to install and amp. And frankly, considering I'm not going with a powerful amp, it is still important. Finally, the owner/engineer/honcho of AF, Andy Wehmeyer, is super responsive to customer questions and has a very active Facebook page (Audiofrog Enthusiasts). So I just bought the AFs on faith, and I'm very happy with them (and Andy - he answered two questions for me very quickly).

I know Focal is really, really advanced. They have a huge presence in high-end home audio, with speakers all over the price range. And every home speaker from Focal that I've heard has been outstanding. I am sure their car equipment is also great. Just verify the sensitivity in particular.

While I love good tunes, I want to preserve the track potential of the 1LE above all else. This Audison all in one is light as a feather, weighs about the same as half a gallon of gas. I think these factory Goodyears really hit a sweet spot for price and performance, and I'm not willing to give them up or replace them with something else, no matter what the cost to fidelity.

Agreed. As an autocrosser and hopeful track-day participant, I have no desire to add much mass in the form of audio equipment. I just want it to be nicely musical.

Some of the rest of the floor noise issue is amplified by the fact those 6x9s are so darned low in the doors. If my ears were in my calves, I think it would be bliss.

I think the DSP and equalizer functions will help you there. The more low notes you can get from the dash speakers, the better also. If you can keep the door speakers playing mostly in their omnidirectional range, their locations should matter less. I think if I'd gone with higher-value capacitor on my AFs, I'd like the current setup better. But the door speakers appear to get a full-range speaker (no low-pass filter that I can see), so with DSP using active crossover points it should be significantly better.

EDIT TO ADD: Since there's currently no digital interface for 2019+ 1LEs, I hoping that there will soon be a breakout harness option from Gen5DIY that we can plug into the radio receiver module so we don't have to cut or tap speaker wires. I asked them if they could make one, and they said they would. I'll post something if/when it become available.

Also, for that Audison amp it looks like it will be too big to tuck up under the dash, even though its light. Your best bet might be to mount it over the MRC module in the trunk, which is where GM put the factory amps for other Camaros with MRC that come with amps. It looks like there are good mounting holes in the MRC module bracket, and you could just make a tray out of aluminum sheet or whatever and screw it down. Here's a pic of the stock setup in my friend's SS:

[Noize]

Originally Posted by Msquared

I wish I could tell you anything from experience, but I've never heard the Kenwoods or Focals. There's also a Morel "twiddler" that I'm sure is very good. I did read reviews of the Kenwood, and some said it was a bit harsh and unrefined, but better than stock. Compared to the AF speaker, both the Kenwood and Morel have less frequency range and are significantly less sensitive. The sensitivity was a big selling point for me when I thought I wasn't going to install and amp. And frankly, considering I'm not going with a powerful amp, it is still important. Finally, the owner/engineer/honcho of AF, Andy Wehmeyer, is super responsive to customer questions and has a very active Facebook page (Audiofrog Enthusiasts). So I just bought the AFs on faith, and I'm very happy with them (and Andy - he answered two questions for me very quickly).

I know Focal is really, really advanced. They have a huge presence in high-end home audio, with speakers all over the price range. And every home speaker from Focal that I've heard has been outstanding. I am sure their car equipment is also great. Just verify the sensitivity in particular.


Agreed. As an autocrosser and hopeful track-day participant, I have no desire to add much mass in the form of audio equipment. I just want it to be nicely musical.


I think the DSP and equalizer functions will help you there. The more low notes you can get from the dash speakers, the better also. If you can keep the door speakers playing mostly in their omnidirectional range, their locations should matter less. I think if I'd gone with higher-value capacitor on my AFs, I'd like the current setup better. But the door speakers appear to get a full-range speaker (no low-pass filter that I can see), so with DSP using active crossover points it should be significantly better.

EDIT TO ADD: Since there's currently no digital interface for 2019+ 1LEs, I hoping that there will soon be a breakout harness option from Gen5DIY that we can plug into the radio receiver module so we don't have to cut or tap speaker wires. I asked them if they could make one, and they said they would. I'll post something if/when it become available.

Also, for that Audison amp it looks like it will be too big to tuck up under the dash, even though its light. Your best bet might be to mount it over the MRC module in the trunk, which is where GM put the factory amps for other Camaros with MRC that come with amps. It looks like there are good mounting holes in the MRC module bracket, and you could just make a tray out of aluminum sheet or whatever and screw it down. Here's a pic of the stock setup in my friend's SS:

Thanks again! Cutting the harness no big deal, I did it in my Type R, I'll do it in this car.

Definitely would put the amplifier in the SS spot, as to have a super short run for power wire.

[Noize]

Matt, your info on the factory speaker ohm ratings has inspired me to change my order of purchases up a little bit.

I’m going to go ahead and do the door and dash speakers first. I ordered the Audiofrogs for the dash, and some 6 1/2” Focal PC165F flax coax rounds for the door. I realize this will be a short term loss in the bass department, but having no actual dedicated tweeters whatsoever in this car was a bit annoying to me.

Once I can pony up for that expensive DSP, I will probably relocate those door 6 x 9’s to the far rear deck where there are openings to fill the car out nicely with some bass. So maybe just stock speakers in the back for now. Hopefully the front stage will freaking blaze like this.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by Noize

Matt, your info on the factory speaker ohm ratings has inspired me to change my order of purchases up a little bit.

I’m going to go ahead and do the door and dash speakers first. I ordered the Audiofrogs for the dash, and some 6 1/2” Focal PC165F flax coax rounds for the door. I realize this will be a short term loss in the bass department, but having no actual dedicated tweeters whatsoever in this car was a bit annoying to me.

Once I can pony up for that expensive DSP, I will probably relocate those door 6 x 9’s to the far rear deck where there are openings to fill the car out nicely with some bass. So maybe just stock speakers in the back for now. Hopefully the front stage will freaking blaze like this.

Sounds like a good plan. The GS25s in the dash will make you miss dedicated tweeters a whole lot less.

[Noize]

So far (some copy+pasta from another thread):

I had to cut off the factory connector on the driver side speaker and make my own connector for my sweet new Audiofrog GS25 mids. The passenger side had extra wire, and it was cake compared to the driver's side.

I am going to run the doors and rear 6x9s off an aftermarket amplifier, but running the Audiofrogs up front full range (no cap) with great sound quality and no ill effect. Their rolloff is very sharp below 200Hz

The factory amplifier is pretty tame on the 1LE, and I tested them with bass gain at +8 and hip hop at 70% volume and heard no audible distortion.

The doors are Focal PCF165 Flax 6" round coaxial speakers with a Metra mounting kit.

Per an installer friend's warning and Matt echoing it above, I took a gamble putting them in the door. I'm really happy I did! They sound fantastic, but they would really like some more power. I got some Infinity Reference 6x9s that I'll run in the rear window area with an adapter, and just disable the junk ones in the rear sides.

I have a little Focal Class D 58x4w RMS amplifier lying around from an old car that I can run high level input. If power is good, but fidelity is bad, I might pop for another Fix86 for this car. I just can't bring myself to drop $1250 on an Audison DSP/amp combo.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by Noize

I am going to run the doors and rear 6x9s off an aftermarket amplifier, but running the Audiofrogs up front full range (no cap) with great sound quality and no ill effect. Their rolloff is very sharp below 200Hz

...I have a little Focal Class D 58x4w RMS amplifier lying around from an old car that I can run high level input. If power is good, but fidelity is bad, I might pop for another Fix86 for this car. I just can't bring myself to drop $1250 on an Audison DSP/amp combo.

So the system is arranged as a four-channel system such that the doors and dash speakers are like components on one channel per side, and the rear-seat speakers are separate rear channels. I'm not sure how that's going to work if you amplify the doors but not the dash speakers. I guess you'll still be able to tune it with the treble/bass equalizer in the head unit? Really don't know. Tell us how it works out.

I have Audiofrog GS690 6x9 woofers coming for my doors. I'm probably going to get them installed before I get the little amp/dsp unit installed. So I'll be able to get an idea of how speaker upgrades with no amp at all can sound. Like the dash speakers, they have pretty high sensitivity compared to most competitors (I think it's 90db?), so they might be decent.

[oOKhanhOo]

If you don’t want to cut into the factory wires to the dash tweeter/mids, there’s this:
https://lljcustoms.com/store/ols/pro...eeter-adapters

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by oOKhanhOo

If you don’t want to cut into the factory wires to the dash tweeter/mids, there’s this:
https://lljcustoms.com/store/ols/pro...eeter-adapters

Well damn! If I'd have known those were available, I would have bought those instead of spending time cannibalizing my OE dash speakers! They do appear to be the correct connectors. Nobody else out there seems to have them. Nice find!

[Noize]

Well, I ran wires from the rear side panels to install 6x9s in the back deck. Man, it was a bigger ordeal than I thought it would be. So many freaking plastic panels to remove. No room to work with the 6x9s.

I still haven’t installed the amplifier. I feel a little bit intimidated getting to the wires going to the door speakers to send them to the amp. The driver’s side will require a lot of unwrapping of the harness, and the passenger side is the same but harder to access.

Everything is full range right now. It sounds really good and musical, and no audible distortion even at 75% volume.

Man, the bass is SORRY, though, and both my kids commented on it. This is my first car in decades without a sub, and while I don’t want to take up the trunk space and add the weight, I would like one. It needs some help. Not sure how to proceed. Might leave it as-is now.

[Noize]

So much data!

I installed that Focal FDS 4.350 amplifier to the front door Focal speakers and the rear deck Infinity 6x9s. I used the rear side panel speaker wires as my high level inputs, because they don't have the door chime. THIS WAS A MISTAKE. Man, the whole system sounded like hot garbage, and I couldn't understand why.

Then I remembered someone arguing in this thread that the signal from the rear side panels was bad, so I sent back the front door input speaker input signals for fun, and it _instantly_ stopped sounding like a piece of crap. The reason is that whatever signal is going to the rear panel speakers is completely different that what is going to the front doors.

This is problematic, because the kick panel wires to the speaker amplify the door chimes, but the signal is probably 100x better. The rear panel signal sounds like it was pulled from a late 70s weather radio.

I am very happy with this amplifier now, and the bass is fair, considering all the speakers are still relatively small and in crappy factory enclosures.

What I really need is a powered subwoofer, but am uncertain how I would install it with this setup- literally everything is coming from those door speaker signals. I considered living with it as-is, but will probably go to the local audio shop tomorrow to see what they think.

As is, it's so much better than factory, it's preposterous. I am confident you can make a 1LE system sound amazing for not terribly too much money.

[Noize]

This will be my last update on this.

After a couple of days of driving around like in the prior post, the front speakers definitely sounded better than tapping off the rear, but it still didn't sound great. It was fatiguing to listen to even after a few minutes, and I still had to use super wonky EQ settings: +8 bass, +3 mid, and -9 treble, so that sucked. The components for a good system were there, but I couldn't bring it together.

That all ended this morning: I surrendered, purchased and self installed a Fix86 and a powered sub.

First, the Fix86: I installed it, set the factory EQ flat, and ran the test tone into my Focal amp. Everything now sounds so great flat now, and music is restored and sounds so much better. Not fatiguing anymore, no weird frequencies and resonances anymore, nothing. I'm left with just good, clean sound. I crossed all the speakers on the Focal amp over at about 120hz to prevent any rattles, and began to install the sub.

The sub is an Audison APBX 10AS2 sealed and powered 10 that lays on its belly. Its 400 watts RMS, has velcro feet, and it's sitting in the trunk right behind the backseat. Great footprint, and no trunk space issues. It plays loud, decently deep, accurately, and hits really hard for a 10.

Some of these components I had existing, but you could replicate this system for about $2k. And it sounds fantastic now. Anyway, all that to say, the Fix86 is the most useful and vital component to address this crappy stock radio. But there are so many issues with the factory system, that a full replacement of literally everything after head unit and chip amplifier is vital to get it sounding great.

There are a couple negatives- My chimes and turn signal clicks are definitely louder- a bit annoying, but not overpowering. And if you leave the car and re-enter before the amps have cycled off (about 2 minutes), you'll get about a half second boom hello from the sub upon re-entry. Hopefully I can get this sorted out soon, if anyone has any idea why it happens, I would love to hear it! Thanks for listening to my 1LE audio adventures.