[18.2SS.1LE]

Procharger is the way to go. Add port injection, E85 and you will be over 700 whp.
Quick hit in Mexico:

[oldman]

I have done it all and then back to NA (gave the Camaro to my son), then he gets a Supra and sends me back the Camaro so back to Procharger, that said I have ever combo now: stock, FBO, NA heads and cam, ported intake, MSD, P1S base kit, D1X, E85... OK I have NOT done a dual inject... LOL.

If I were going to 1/4 mile I'd follow Pray, he has guys with door slammers into the 9s right?? NA.. it is just way simpler and shows that really the chassis as it sits does not need the torque from FI. I like NA also because even wild no lift shift works well and with traction control on, the package is really fun and playful on the street, plus the sound of 7200 RPM thru a good sounding (not some loud drone can junk) is just music, and you can actually get that with a bone stock ehaust system and CA front cat deletes, in fact with FI and a built engine it was too loud at full chat that I went and installed Borla 60608 2 and 3/4 inch resonators just so I would not go DEAF.

I did have a lot of supporting mods even on the P1CS, but it is fun and the smooth increase in power just felt like a bigger engine. I found this combination, my M6 and street tires (200 wear), is no faster and in fact most times slower than NA. I've been driving and racing manuals my whole life, maybe on an auto it is different. Since I had the stock bottom end (large cam) my fuel cut was 6800 RPM and it does not sound as good, that extra 400 RPM really adds some OMG to the way the car sounds and pulls. So for me and my choice of feel, sound and fun, NA cam, Heads, CA front cat deletes and / or E85 was really a sweet spot, toss in a MSD or LT2 or Holley High Ram done deal.

I went crazy with E85 a bunch of pullies and drag radials and a D1X, the car accelerated stupidly quick, but it is a handful, I can hop around 1/2 lane on shifts, it is not playful and any use of power with traction control off, means a known high quality road with NO traffic as the car is a handful. Is it quicker than a built NA on street tires M6... I highly doubt it, it is what it is a stupidly over powered setup. Hence I put it back to NA for my son, but now he has one of them fancy engineering degrees from UT Austin, he does not like the crude American stuff... unless it is a 401 in a Gremlin X.

Now that I'm fully retired till the oldlady makes me get a job to get me out of the house, I have the supercharger in and will cut a hole for holley hi ram and I have a set of dumps (loud as heck), all the show off my big cam, monster toy at the cars and coffee, it does help that I have the trophy wife too, we are doing a Volcano wine run just to show off our class. but it is just that ALL show as IMO me in a NA setup is the way to both go fast and really enjoy the car....

So they are not the same and it really depends and it really depends on what you are doing, show car for cars and coffee you need a polished blower, dumps and a Holley High Ram sticking out or toss the hood away even better, on your transmission of choice and you tire of choice, I'm sure guys with 00 drag radials and an auto have their own opinion, but I did mention Pray's door slammers NA into the 9s. Just playful street fun, do the NA and put some money into the exhaust to get it where you want it.. stock, mod stock, Borla, Corsa, LT, LT with no cats... et al. Be warned the suck for some reason gets insanely loud with cam, heads, and 7200 RPM... in a good way and it is very fast on 200 wear street tires.

[oldman]

some how got double post

[KingLT1]

There is more to it than meets the eye with Prays NA builds. A lot of weight reduction, race brakes, no trans tm...etc. His head cam package on a full weight street car with 20" wheels does not run 9's. And I am not hating on the man...he has helped me a ton. Talked to him on the phone a couple times in the early days. But the point is, the NA cars that are 100% track prepped seem to get compared to FI cars that are 100% street. If I took my car and track prepped it the way those NA 9 second cars are, my car would go deep into the 9's at 145+ mph.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

There is more to it than meets the eye with Prays NA builds. A lot of weight reduction, race brakes, no trans tm...etc. His head cam package on a full weight street car with 20" wheels does not run 9's.

I stated drag racing door slammers... which we would assume are light weight cars for NA.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

And I am not hating on the man...he has helped me a ton. Talked to him on the phone a couple times in the early days. But the point is, the NA cars that are 100% track prepped seem to get compared to FI cars that are 100% street. If I took my car and track prepped it the way those NA 9 second cars are, my car would go deep into the 9's at 145+ mph.

Maybe so, I don't think my comparison was focused nor limited to this extreme comparison, in fact I'd say it was just the opposite, I clearly said IF YOU ARE GOING 1/4 MILE......
. I'd say if you went "deep into the 9s"
1) easier said than done, I'm sure there is a drag strip near you.
2) driveline failure would be in your near future, do NA cars fail too? Yep but at a slower if not much slower rate.

As stated, FI bragging about rear HP, does not translate on the street or on the track (need extensive drivetrain and tire mods) and that is even more true with a M6. Longevity of the NA built correctly can be long indeed.

I too talk to Pray back in the day. I was going to build a 416 stroker but back then not much was know about how the LS bearings fit and all these helpful shops would not help. Only recently when Tim did his build did I really understand the modification needed. I digress anyway with back and forth and a really good deal I ended up with Pray's ported heads, supercharger cam (from Texas Speed) and Procharger P1S package. This was late 2016 or early 2017. I by then help buds build LT4 blower conversions, now intercooled blowers, etc....

Going from FBO to a heads, cam, blower package cam with HP and a good chunk of torque; literally from that day forward I've been looking for a rim tire combination that can both handle and give some traction. I have been stating for many many years now given 220+ wear tires I don't see any acceleration advantages on FI on a M6 car..... at least not till like 70 MPH or so...


I offered the original poster predicated on that my setups and on a 6 speed that IMO, after driving 7 years on various combinations that on 220+ wear street tires at any practical road speed the NA setup is just as quick. That IMO from mild to wild, the FI setup is more of an eye candy deal. That IMO the sound, feel and playfulness of the NA setup are significantly better than the FI setups (already noted that my FI setups are far from stock engine)..

Since we are talking personal times on the street (which I like). I speculate my car from FBO to supercharger, to crazy supercharger, to 3/4 effort NA, on PS4 tires all run in the mid to high 11s at 120 to 128 MPH.... That a direct comparison of my (supercharger, heads, cam) vs 3/4 effort NA (heads, cam, intake manifold, LT, E85) that it well within a driver's race and 9 out of 10 times I'd give the NA setup the win in a street fight. Lets say on PS4 either combination is inconsistent on a M6 but you would be next to god if you could put either into low 11s on the plain street. Only at speeds well above 85 MPH (highest legal speed in Texas) does the FI have an advantage. So maybe the question is do you want to run 100 wear or 00 wear drag radials, which is what I've been saying for many many years now. If not then it pretty much does not matter what you got under the hood.

Parts breakage, other than my lifter failure (Z/28 lifter) on .660 lift, I have had no engine or drivetrain failures through 7? sets of tires, which I don't burn out. How many drivetrain failures are there with these 700+ WHP setups? More if talk about actual 1/4 track usage. The NA package can get away with super cheap ZL1 driveshaft, and axle shafts and IMO even upto weekend drag racing, I don't know if the ZL1 stuff will hold on FI drag racing.

Price, a good heads, cam with gentle street profile, LT2 intake, LT2 TB, E85, front cat deletes and tune is dunno 1/2 the price not including labor which is free for me, vs a FI setup. Sure the FI is going to make more HP, but I don't know if it will be any faster or quicker at any safe road speed on 220+ wear tires as even stone stock LT4 are somewhat traction limited.

I'll see if I can get draggy data before I start work on my Camaro (dropping the CR and installing a solid crank L8T with boostline rods). My problem is not draggy data. it is that most of the speed limits here are 45 MPH, I'm not in Texas anymore. Will my next setup be any faster or quicker than 3/4 NA effort setup it was on when my son had it? Probably not. But it will LOOK way faster, especially when I get the Holley High Ram on it... If want faster and quicker I'd go with some 315 size 18" rim 00 wear drag radials, but there goes the handling which I use 100% of the time...

[KingLT1]

Good points.

[s346k]

what are your goals for the car?

to me, it is pretty simple.

sub 135 mph NA
135+ mph boost

[6spdhyperblue]

That rebuilt whipple in the classifieds is calling my name but full e85 is a requirement for my buuld, so the cost balloons with what fuel parts cost right now. Then I swing back to h/c. I can’t settle on a path forward for longer than a week.

[Dynamical]

Originally Posted by 6spdhyperblue

That rebuilt whipple in the classifieds is calling my name but full e85 is a requirement for my buuld, so the cost balloons with what fuel parts cost right now. Then I swing back to h/c. I can’t settle on a path forward for longer than a week.

Sounds like me. My cars always drive me nuts

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by 6spdhyperblue

That rebuilt whipple in the classifieds is calling my name but full e85 is a requirement for my buuld, so the cost balloons with what fuel parts cost right now. Then I swing back to h/c. I can’t settle on a path forward for longer than a week.

Honestly the THP port injection system is the way to go right now with current fueling costs. I believe you can get the entire setup around 3k. This combined with a JMS on the low side would allow you to make around 680-700whp on pretty much whatever E comes out of the pump before the low side reaches it's limits. Look what Greg did with his LT1. Went 9.80 @ 142 with a Mag 2300, THP PI system, RC components drag pack. Drive like stock, sound like stock, all until you press the throttle to the floor. I personally would much rather have a setup like this vs a NA car that is gutted, shakes, rattles, and rolls to run similar times. And I still don't think you match the top end until you get into a extensive big cubic inch build. I believe some of Pray/GPI big power NA builds end up around 30k all in with supporting mods. That is the thing in 2023, NA isn't nearly as cost effective like it was back in the LS days.

[oldman]

Three supercharged cars, the manual is all over the track and one breaks (the camaro) and the stone stock Hellcat is the fastest and quickest and most consistent and we all know how hard that car is to launch on a plain everyday road... It does show what I've been saying on street tires, I'm pretty sure a NA Camaro would be in for the win.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Honestly the THP port injection system is the way to go right now with current fueling costs. I believe you can get the entire setup around 3k. This combined with a JMS on the low side would allow you to make around 680-700whp on pretty much whatever E comes out of the pump before the low side reaches it's limits. Look what Greg did with his LT1. Went 9.80 @ 142 with a Mag 2300, THP PI system, RC components drag pack. Drive like stock, sound like stock, all until you press the throttle to the floor. I personally would much rather have a setup like this vs a NA car that is gutted, shakes, rattles, and rolls to run similar times.

You had me until you went into the gutted, shakes and rattles. I have a lithium Ion battery, back seat delete and have all the covers above and below removed... yep it does shake, it does not rattle but it does perform well on the street since it is dunno 200 lbs or more lighter ( 1 have a base 1SS, M6), hardly gutted, lets say a auto drag NA setup with similar mild to lose weight (diet helps) is in the low 10s OK.... I will point out off the drag strip, on the AutoX, on the road race, and on the 99.9% of the time on the street the 200 or MORE lighter NA setup with mild weight reduction is really a fun, playful and toss able chassis. IMO and I'm not saying I good at the first two (too old), I think NA is so much better. Oh and sound, a proper exhaust NA, cam, and 7200 RPM is music.

I agree and I have said so many times now you need a prep track, a drag pack to really see the benefits of FI, or racing above say 85 MPH like the Texas Mile. On 220+ wear tires all the FI torque is useless...

IMO, I think a 9.8 FI car on stock auto, stock converter, stock diff, stock driveshaft, and stock axle shafts is asking for trouble sooner or later. A 200+ lighter NA car going low to mid 10s would be IMO once again more dependable or substantially more dependable. I would agree 9.8 with a stock drivetrain + blower + fuel + drag pack is heck of impressive; I just think the setup is marginal in terms of reliability.

Cost, I don't know where 30K comes from NA, heads, cam, LT2 intake, LT2 TB, tune, converter, CAI, E85 + LT headers lets see $1200 + $1200 + $700 LT2+ $1200 converter + $1200 tune + $400 + $150 + $1200 labor: bout $7400 goes are doing some good times with that and DR and / or drag pack.
On 220+ wear street tires, we all know this setup is driver race with just about any Pony Car from stock to wild...
So lets do the score card:

Sound: NA 10, some LTs and cam and 7200 RPM pure music... yum
Blower+ fuel lets add in front cat deletes for grins.. 6 or near stock

Weight: NA bout stock or a little lighter 6, FI, well heavy and high and in the front so -5

Dependability: NA 5, FI 4 on a street car, on a race track NA 5 and FI 0

Street Performance 220+ wear tires stop light throw down NA 7 FI 4 (too much torque)
Street Performance 220+ wear tires, I'm drinking coffee and want to have quick blast, don't need to call attention to myself NA 5 FI 8

Street Performance 100 wear DR NA 5, FI 7

Performance at the track

Drag Racing, prep track, prep car with drag pack: NA 5, FI 8
Road Racing NA 5 and FI (need infinite bucks)
AutoX NA5 and FI 2 (heavy and hot)
Texas Mile NA2 and FI 10, probably not a PD blower here.

Eyecandy NA 5 and FI 7 and a Holley High Ram is a 10... personal

Daily Driver... nothing crazy... aka normal people's ride:
nearly stock, never raced, street car and some cars and coffee, it is a personal preference:
NA is lighter, less heat, can sound incredible, nice cam chop, can go from mild to wild.
FI: nice torque, drives like stock but "BIGGER", if you can live with the base boost it is a great setup and can sound near stock which many times is a good thing especially for a DD. Stronger eye candy for sure...


Bout sums it up.

Originally Posted by KingLT1

And I still don't think you match the top end until you get into a extensive big cubic inch build. I believe some of Pray/GPI big power NA builds end up around 30k all in with supporting mods. That is the thing in 2023, NA isn't nearly as cost effective like it was back in the LS days.

I agree with the niche you named, but there is no one size fits all. I also listed near stock daily driver would be another personal preference niche. For a stock sounding ride with lots of get up and go. I've pretty much listed my take on the two setups with a broad brush, I like either and it is going to personal and what it is being used for. I would absolutely concede that a 9.8 car with blower + fuel + drag pack is crazy hard to beat in that one niche.. I've gone and high lighted the niche that IMO a FI setup would be from my standpoint more desirable.

[adamjwilson]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

Best thing you can do is come up with a real power goal for your car. It all starts there.

Going forced induction is the only way to big power but will require a good amount of work and money.

+1 on that comment by Josh.. go BIG or go home
BUT live within your means as it's a hobby and not a job.

[oldman]

I wondering how the prochager with the factory box compares to the one with the air filter sticking out the back?