[TrackClub]

Jerome and Cem: are you guys national level BMW/Porsche/Ferrari club chief instructors? Or international level race car drivers? I am asking as I've received mentoring from such folks in the past and not once did any of them suggest I should be braking later. Having said that, I am sure some do brake later than me, while others brake earlier than me. Some trail brake less and some more. No 2 drivers drive a car exactly the same. So, let's just call me an "average" driver with decent pace and not try to make a u-turn off the original subject.

Rays website suggest this pad is suitable for "light Formula cars". Also "GT race cars", but suspect those wouldn't be 3747lb pigs like our cars. Also note that ST47 pad appears to have 3 times better fading capability vs ST43 (ahem Cem ) As a matter of fact, ST43 appears to have the lowest anti fading capability of all their track pads. Thermal limits seem much lower vs other pads if the chart I have shows official data.

As to "endurance pads" - per Chump Car forum there appears to be a consensus they are best suited for light cars AND they don't like to be overheated. Aha!

And I got a text from my brake reseller (not married to any specific brand) suggesting that had he known that I drive my car "fast" he would NOT have recommended ST43s but rather higher compound or different brands. Aha!

As far as vids: I don't post them (personal reasons). But there is a vid of me driving on page 31 in Official picture/vid thread, taken by a Cayman R that followed me. Take a look and see if he gains on me in brake zones with slicks on and a much lighter car.

I have not spent $1000 CAD on the pads just to trash them in 15mins. Nor has my driving changed last Sat. Nor was I pushing very hard that day. But, given this Forum has been an excellent source of info, I felt compelled to share my experience. But, I do frequent some fast tracks, with hard braking zones and concrete walls or Armco, where dealing with fade is NOT an option.
Hence a pad that performs consistently is of top priority for me and always will be. Thus far stock Ferodos and XP10s have done this for me with zero issues. My only regret is them lasting 5 days. But perhaps that's not too bad for a heavy car.

As far as pad/tire/etc matching - I am after a DUAL use pad (track with some street). Provoste uses DTC60 for street tires/slicks and some DD. I've used other pads for the same purpose before. No need to make this a very complex subject as this ain't Formula 1 or IMSA

Happy tracking!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Uncle Sam

Track Club, it is good to post the results of practical experience for others to consider. I think you are one of the 1LE owners who do the most track days and have the sample size to make comparisons. Thanks for the information.

Thank you for your kind words. I have learnt tons about this car et al from other Forum members myself!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by seanblurr

The car is rough on brakes, that's for sure. I may try DTC60's or 70's next. My G-Loc 12's cant handle 4+ laps at Laguna.

Provoste runs DTC60 with good success as far as I know. Various tracks too!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Marshsram

I'm also in the same boat that doesn't care for the Raybestos ST series pads because they are not as easy to modulate. On my other car (M3) I've gone through pretty much all the other major payers- Carbotech XP10/XP12, Project Mu Club Racer, Endless ME20, Cobalt XR2, PFC 11/08/01/97 and I just don't see what all the fuss is about once you try some other options that give you the strong initial bite, medium to high friction levels AND the modulation control.

I do think that Raybestos' compound options offer a great value for anyone going out there to simply turn some laps for fun at a DE since they are usually one of the least expensive options, work well enough for fun laps and wear very well. I also agree that once you have a pad that can lock the tires/engage ABS braking preferences are highly subjective and different types of pads work better for different folks. I just never understood why they had so many die hard fans unless they were all just raised on Raybestos and never bothered to try anything else.

To me they feel like an on/off switch and feel horrible on a street for that reason. They were also on par price wise vs other options.
BTW do u recall what were your findings xp10 vs 12? Tx!

[Marshsram]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

To me they feel like an on/off switch and feel horrible on a street for that reason. They were also on par price wise vs other options.
BTW do u recall what were your findings xp10 vs 12? Tx!

XP10 vs XP12 on the 1LE is probably fairly meaningless since it's such a heavy and powerful car with a lot of mechanical grip- If I were going to try Carbotech/G-Loc I'd go straight to XP20 or XP24. I'm sure XP10 or 12 might "work" but those compounds vaporize when they run at or above the upper end of their operating temp range and I can basically guarantee you'd kill a set of pads in a day or two lol.

[JeromeS13]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Jerome and Cem: are you guys national level BMW/Porsche/Ferrari club chief instructors? Or international level race car drivers? I am asking as I've received mentoring from such folks in the past and not once did any of them suggest I should be braking later. Having said that, I am sure some do brake later than me, while others brake earlier than me. Some trail brake less and some more. No 2 drivers drive a car exactly the same. So, let's just call me an "average" driver with decent pace and not try to make a u-turn off the original subject.

Well excuse us for being curious and trying to help. Sometimes things can be noticed from video data better than riding in the passenger seat. No worries, though. We'll just let everyone keep "armchair'ing" responses.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Marshsram

XP10 vs XP12 on the 1LE is probably fairly meaningless since it's such a heavy and powerful car with a lot of mechanical grip- If I were going to try Carbotech/G-Loc I'd go straight to XP20 or XP24. I'm sure XP10 or 12 might "work" but those compounds vaporize when they run at or above the upper end of their operating temp range and I can basically guarantee you'd kill a set of pads in a day or two lol.

Well I did run xp10s for 5+ days...they clearly didn't melt or fade.
But xp12s are better suited for heavier cars per Carbotech with a bit higher thermal capability vs xp10 (2000F).

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by JeromeS13

Well excuse us for being curious and trying to help. Sometimes things can be noticed from video data better than riding in the passenger seat. No worries, though. We'll just let everyone keep "armchair'ing" responses.

Trying to "help" or perhaps trying to "prove" I cooked the pads due to my "driving style"? Oh wait: Cem has already reached this conclusion without any data.

If you're curious about my driving style then take a look at the vid I suggested.
Plenty of data there to "analyze" if you are so inclined: brake zone markers, speeds, my brake lights etc.

The bottom line is the pads faded after 15mins of me driving. The other 2 didn't. This means the pads thermal capabilities are much lower vs the other 2 all other things being equal. This seems confirmed by my independent brake source.

Anyhow, the key here is that they faded fast.
And that's the purpose of my OP. Cheers!

[TrackClub]

The offer still stands to anyone that thinks these pads are "magic" on our cars: half price and free shipping! 1 track day and about 400 street miles.
Sold "as is" with no warranties or promises. Read my OP first. Just PM me if interested. Thanks!

[JeromeS13]

[Marshsram]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Well I did run xp10s for 5+ days...they clearly didn't melt or fade.
But xp12s are better suited for heavier cars per Carbotech with a bit higher thermal capability vs xp10 (2000F).

Thats pretty surprising to me, clearly you didn't get them that close to the upper end of their temp range, which is a good thing, since they are capable of lasting quite a while if kept in their happy temp range.

In that case I would try the XP12 if you want a little higher initial bite and overall friction levels. On the M3 I did not find there to be a huge difference in terms of life between the two but if I were to split hairs I'd give the nod to XP12s. As far as subjective feel it's not a night and day difference between the two either but the XP12s are slightly more aggressive across the board (as advertised) and work well for any of the EHP street or entry level r-comps.

In terms of street friendliness they are both a wash as far as I'm concerned haha. Both dust a lot and both are quiet when they have a nice transfer layer on the rotor (like after a track event) but will wear through that after a day or two of cold braking/street driving and begin to make a good amount of noise... mostly light braking up to stoplights and stop signs. To be fair this is common with all track focused pads but some are worse than others.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Trying to "help" or perhaps trying to "prove" I cooked the pads due to my "driving style"? Oh wait: Cem has already reached this conclusion without any data.

If you're curious about my driving style then take a look at the vid I suggested.
Plenty of data there to "analyze" if you are so inclined: brake zone markers, speeds, my brake lights etc.

The bottom line is the pads faded after 15mins of me driving. The other 2 didn't. This means the pads thermal capabilities are much lower vs the other 2 all other things being equal. This seems confirmed by my independent brake source.

Anyhow, the key here is that they faded fast.
And that's the purpose of my OP. Cheers!

I was trying to help/troubleshoot not to judge anything. It sounds like these pads are not for you and I get that, a video would help a lot (not someone following you from a distance) but I understand if you don't want to share here.

Below is what I quoted from a post in this forum. It sounds like pro racer Michael Levitas also thinks that ST43s would be good option for our cars as well. Is he qualified to comment on the subject?

I Have Found The Secret Sauce! (track pads)
Everybody that track a heavy car knows that brakes are the first thing to fail and get consumed. Over the years I've used with heavy cars various brake pads such as Carbotech XP8 / 10 / 12 , EBC Blue , Hawk DCT60 , Powerstop Track Day, 6gen stock and more. All off these pads had either/or of the following problems:
1. Brake fade 10 minutes into the session.
2. If they have no fade, I would kill a set of fronts in 2 days.
3. They would chew my rotors.

Until I spoke to a pro Porsche racer Michael Levitas (who happens to own C7 Z06) . Michael said that there are 3 pads that are perfect for our car:
1. Raybestos ST-43
2. Ferodo DS 1.11
3. PFC 08

He recommended going with the ST43 since they are half price and have more modulation that will fit street tires as well.

I just spent over the weekend 2 days on Shenandoah Circuit. This is one of the hardest tracks in the country on your brakes, since there's no long straights for cooling. It's basically AX on steroids (Video below). In the past I melted all the above pads on this track, but NOT the ST43. These pads are AMAZING!!! I think I did not even use 1 mm over 2 days beating the crap out of my car (used the same pad front and rear). The bite is good from cold, never felt any fade, even thru ambient 88F / 25 min session. I just love these pads
A few other forum members recommended these pads as well.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Marshsram

Thats pretty surprising to me, clearly you didn't get them that close to the upper end of their temp range, which is a good thing, since they are capable of lasting quite a while if kept in their happy temp range.

In that case I would try the XP12 if you want a little higher initial bite and overall friction levels. On the M3 I did not find there to be a huge difference in terms of life between the two but if I were to split hairs I'd give the nod to XP12s. As far as subjective feel it's not a night and day difference between the two either but the XP12s are slightly more aggressive across the board (as advertised) and work well for any of the EHP street or entry level r-comps.

In terms of street friendliness they are both a wash as far as I'm concerned haha. Both dust a lot and both are quiet when they have a nice transfer layer on the rotor (like after a track event) but will wear through that after a day or two of cold braking/street driving and begin to make a good amount of noise... mostly light braking up to stoplights and stop signs. To be fair this is common with all track focused pads but some are worse than others.

Thx that's helpful feedback. I may try XP12 but will try DTC60 first. Cheers!

[X25]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I know that some (marketing?) refer to them as "magic pads" but after trying them today, the only "magic" was a very aggressive initial bite - which I didn't like BTW as it was difficult to modulate the brakes. But most importantly, I got fade at 10 laps on a 1:2x track and when I pulled in to the pits after the first stint: the fronts were smoking seriously! I repeated the process 3 more sessions with the same result: the brakes were good for 10 laps. Yes I've bedded them and yes I had fresh fluid. This is the same track I could stand on stock pads for my PB and then had the same success pace wise with XP10s. After Googling some BBs I've discovered I am not the only person to have experienced this. Perhaps driving style might have something to do with it, but clearly this "magic" is not for me. To be fair, the wear seems good, but that's academic if they cook in less than 20mins.
My first hand take anyway. NB Ambient was about 72F.

I have no idea how your driving is, or how much you push the car, or if you overdrive it (actually very common) or not, etc., but merely judging by what you've liked so far, I'd say you're used to stock pad-like bite and modulation. Especially with the 1LE brakes with huge surface area, the initial bite will be very high with any race pad, including DTC-60s (or 70s) that you're wondering about.

Now, as others also pointed out, the rules of the game change. Think about it this way: you can smoke and fade ANY pad by doing 10-20 times 60-0 panic braking during the bedding process. These pads have a big bite, right, it also means they reduce the speed of your car quite a bit even with low application, and turn that speed you had into energy/heat much faster than what stock pads can do. As Spiderman's uncle would say, with big power comes big responsibility: you need to feather them, and never drag them : )

I have used Cobalts, Carbotechs, Hawks, PFC, Raybestos, Stock, StopTech, etc. on various cars like STi, C5 Z06, C6 Z51, C6 Z06, Evo X, Camaro 1LE, NC Miata, Corvette C7 Z51 (with Z06 brakes), etc. ST43s seem to be a great sweet spot in terms of performance. During my experience with these brakes, they've never faded on any of my cars, and what's more, they provided the least wear on my expensive rotors while lasting a long time themselves. DTC-60/70 combos, for instance, provide good bite (similar to ST43s actually, so you won't like it), but just check out the rotors. They literally carve channels on the poor rotor, and you have to replace those rotors a lot more often than what you would with ST43s. I'd say about 3x more often.

Sure, everything on the internet has a hype, fine, but there're also usually real reasons behind why people stick with a certain product. I couldn't care less about Raybestos, the company itself, but their brake pads are good. I'd say, PFC, Raybestos are great brands to stick with for brake pads.

Here's a video of my car at Oregon Raceway Park with Raybestos pads and NT01s: