Why a 1LE instead of a ZL1

[Dropspeed]

Originally Posted by Orange Crush 1LE

Matt,

This is good to hear, because I'm adding some HP now! Cam (custom grind for longetivity on road course), long tubes, CAI and tune.

Also have decided to do the Pedders Supercar coilovers, 32mm 1LE rear sway bar, and a few key Pedders bushings. After adding up the cost of another set of wheels and Hoosiers, and considering how fast Hoosiers wear out, I talked myself into sticking with street tires but springing for coilovers etc. I'd like to get your feedback on that plan.

Thanks

Todd

HiTodd,

HMMM where to start tip toeing around this...I have the pleasure of working in the auto industry in Detroit and have many influential friends at different OEM, etc that often lands me in the right place at the right time. I just had a long conversation with two gentlemen that shall remain unnamed at an automotive themed party Saturday night (It is Woodward Dream Cruise Week here) that have direct ties to the Camaro and 1LE development.

The general conversation was about how they can not understand why owners are changing out so many suspension component on the 1LE. The hundreds of man hours that went into the development alone can never be duplicated by the aftermarket and the aftermarket does not have access to their data.

Essentially when you change one thing it will have a direct effect on another component.....If the mods do not all work together you may end up with something that handles worse than it did stock.......Often owners install so many parts at the same time including HP and race tires that their actual lap time decrease, but some modifications (race tires and HP) may be masking the short comings of other modifications.

I myself only installed lowering springs...When I go back to Grattan my alignment is going to match the alignment I had on the car pre-lowering spring and nothing else has been changed/ no other variables beside weather. If the car runs lower lap times, the springs stay...If not, they will be removed.

My opinion is just to make you suspension changes one at a time and see how the car reacts...If it is slower, harder to drive, or just plain doesn' t feel right revisit the modification and go from there. < This does take a lot longer to mod a car, but do it once, do it right!

-Matt

[Dropspeed]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Easy for you maybe, but not for most of us without the good driver mod. Great post.

.

Seat time, Seat time, Seat time Yes, I know I repeat that a lot...but the driver is byfar the best modification you will ever make to a car period!

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Dropspeed

Seat time, Seat time, Seat time Yes, I know I repeat that a lot...but the driver is byfar the best modification you will ever make to a car period!

Listening. How about Best Mod #2? Lose 25+ pounds. (Not for everyone.) Then start modding the car.

[gajagfan]

Originally Posted by Vjc834

I can't afford a ZL1 so I can't put myself in your shoes. I love my 1LE and wouldn't trade it for anything.

I am here too. I think the 1LE is the best sub-$40K car on the planet. It is the reason we now own a new Camaro, and I am very grateful GM made this package available. If I had the money, I might have opted for a ZL1, but having never drove one, I can not guarantee it.

[Fraxum]

OP You must have known what you would hear from owners in this section. We have 1LE here.

The answer most likely will be different in the ZL1 section.

But here 1LE > ZL1 for us. Join us.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by Dropspeed

HiTodd,

HMMM where to start tip toeing around this...I have the pleasure of working in the auto industry in Detroit and have many influential friends at different OEM, etc that often lands me in the right place at the right time. I just had a long conversation with two gentlemen that shall remain unnamed at an automotive themed party Saturday night (It is Woodward Dream Cruise Week here) that have direct ties to the Camaro and 1LE development.

The general conversation was about how they can not understand why owners are changing out so many suspension component on the 1LE. The hundreds of man hours that went into the development alone can never be duplicated by the aftermarket and the aftermarket does not have access to their data.

Essentially when you change one thing it will have a direct effect on another component.....If the mods do not all work together you may end up with something that handles worse than it did stock.......Often owners install so many parts at the same time including HP and race tires that their actual lap time decrease, but some modifications (race tires and HP) may be masking the short comings of other modifications.

I myself only installed lowering springs...When I go back to Grattan my alignment is going to match the alignment I had on the car pre-lowering spring and nothing else has been changed/ no other variables beside weather. If the car runs lower lap times, the springs stay...If not, they will be removed.

My opinion is just to make you suspension changes one at a time and see how the car reacts...If it is slower, harder to drive, or just plain doesn' t feel right revisit the modification and go from there. < This does take a lot longer to mod a car, but do it once, do it right!

-Matt

That's a smart approach of changing one variable at a time, one I embrace in my work as a mechanical design engineer. Unfortunately one of my more precious commodities is time. So when I have the chance to get my Camaro in the shop, I'm compelled to try to kill multiple birds with one stone. Riskier definitely.

I am hoping that because of the success that this package has had in the Lingenfelter L/28 and others, that I will be implementing a track-proven solution. Here are the specifics, if you're curious:

Pedders components:

Camaro Supercar Coilovers
32mm Rear Z Bar
EP6577 Steel Jacketed Radius Bushes
EP1201HD Sub-frame bushes
EP6570Z Trailing Arm Bushes

Also agree with the factory engineers that you spoke to. The time they spent shows in the amazingly well balanced handling the 1LE has. I guess I'm greedy, I want more

I'll know soon if this risk pays off.

[Dropspeed]

Considering that the Lingenfelter car started as an older model year SS and you are starting with a MY13 1LE, are all of the above items needed?

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Dropspeed

Considering that the Lingenfelter car started as an older model year SS and you are starting with a MY13 1LE, are all of the above items needed?

IMHO the 1LE bushings are a little loose. In my previous SS I had full polys all over the back end and Radius Rod inserts up front. I did feel a difference when going to the 1LE, a looseness in back and in the steering. But not as bad as my '11 SS stock. I was curing the '11 SS side step and wheelhop. Both were cured. And the rear bar gets rid of that last vestige of 1LE understeer.

I was hoping to learn how to explore the outer limits of my old SS, which with better tires would have been very high, and much faster than me. But I gave in to the 1LE urge and now I am starting over.

I had a taste and want bushings too. But all things in time.

Those coil overs also look good to me long term. But I better learn to drive what I already own first.

But you ask an interesting question. What is needed? The vendors here have done a great job at helping us understand what we want. That is an entirely different question from need.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by Dropspeed

Considering that the Lingenfelter car started as an older model year SS and you are starting with a MY13 1LE, are all of the above items needed?

Well I'll do my best to answer based on what I've learned. As Fraxum said, the larger 32mm bar will help eliminate what little understeer is left when really pushing the car near it's limits. The bar and bushings are part of the Pedders "1LE Permagrin Package" that is specifically targeted to improve the already impressive handling of the 2013 1LE.

As far as the coilovers, that's the big question to me. I am now on the fence on whether I want to wait on the coilovers. I could start with the 32mm rear bar and bushings, and see how it performs on the track. Then I could do the coilovers next. Perhaps that would be smarter. Although I have some skill and experience tracking, I've never had adjustable coilovers. Pedders will give me what they believe are the correct settings for the dampers, then I will tune as needed from there. Hmmm, you're asking some good questions.

[CrystalRedTintcoat]

Originally Posted by Orange Crush 1LE

Agree with both points of view in the last two posts. For me, the temptation would be not the ZL1 but the Z28. God help my bank account if its priced below the ZL1, lol.

I know! Right! I keep telling my wife we are going to move to the mountains where I'll have space, buy a truck, trailer and z/28 and sell my 1LE. Then I'm going to live on the track. Work schmirk!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[CrystalRedTintcoat]

Originally Posted by Dropspeed

HiTodd,

The general conversation was about how they can not understand why owners are changing out so many suspension component on the 1LE. The hundreds of man hours that went into the development alone can never be duplicated by the aftermarket and the aftermarket does not have access to their data.

Essentially when you change one thing it will have a direct effect on another component.....If the mods do not all work together you may end up with something that handles worse than it did stock.......Often owners install so many parts at the same time including HP and race tires that their actual lap time decrease, but some modifications (race tires and HP) may be masking the short comings of other modifications.

-Matt

Here here! I've left mine stock. I only have two track days under my belt (ever, let alone the 1LE) with stock tires and suspension and I'm in the front of the A (beginners) group. If I ever get good enough to be in the C group and my car is out if warranty AND if I have the energy to dick around with a mod here a mod there and check the timings at a track THEN I'll go crazy.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Dropspeed]

Originally Posted by Orange Crush 1LE

Well I'll do my best to answer based on what I've learned. As Fraxum said, the larger 32mm bar will help eliminate what little understeer is left when really pushing the car near it's limits.

I will continue to play devils advocate. Have you tried lowering the front tire pressure by 2 psi or raising the rear by 2 psi to see what that does for under steer?

Any long term testing done to see how much stress a larger bar puts on the rear subframe mounts while using stock springs? Back in the day Honda Civic and Acura Integra road racers learned quickly that bigger swaybars would tear the mount out of their rear subframe. They learned to do all of their tuning with spring rates and on some shorter tracks (Waterford Hills) they don't even run swaybars.

Not saying it is the same for us, I just want to get you thinking

Sorry to the OP for going way off topic.

Matt

[Nick S]

Originally Posted by Dropspeed

Considering that the Lingenfelter car started as an older model year SS and you are starting with a MY13 1LE, are all of the above items needed?

Very good thought provoking question Matt!!

After talking with JusticePete at Camaro5Fest about my 1LE and options for future mods he pretty plainly said that the only thing that would be even really needed is the 1LE permagrin package (Which is the rear 32mm bar and the 4 rear subframe bushings). He said but you have to really be pushing the car to really "need" that package. He told me that unless I really plan to live at the track with the car and really get serious about competitive racing with it the rest of the suspension as is will be more than enough for most drivers. So basically he was telling me to not spend my money on mods and just spend it on track time to enjoy the car.

I also heard that Danny Popp had driven a stock 1LE to a high 35.xx time (didn't see it so I can't verify truth or not) at the Camaro5Fest Camarocross. In the Ligenfelter/Pedders L28 he was turning lower 35.xx (I rode with him 6 times so I know what a low 35 second time on that course feels like). So looking at how much more modded the L28 is vs a stock 1LE what does that tell me about the suspension? It pretty much tells me to LEAVE IT ALONE and just enjoy driving the car. So now I'm looking at saving my money for the Bondurant Performance Driving school!!

[SUKXOST]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Easy for you maybe, but not for most of us without the good driver mod. Great post.

So many Camaro owners are obsessed only with power, and the LS3 is such a great engine to start with.

Then again you look at what SUKXOST is doing and you see the range the 1LE covers. Awesome car, especially for the $$.