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Old 03-01-2022, 10:39 PM   #1
N Camarolina

 
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Engine bites the dust at 5500 miles

Was at VIR this past weekend, and the lapping was cut short mid day Saturday by engine failure. Had it towed on Chevy's dime 1.5 hrs to a dealer near my house. Waiting to hear on the diagnosis. Would love to hear your thoughts on my question at the bottom of the message regarding rebuild vs replacement (if I have any say in the matter, as this is a warrantee repair).

Some more details on what happened:

On the final lap, the 1st sign of trouble was accelerating out of T1, it felt like traction control was intervening to cut power slightly. Kind of perplexing, but thought it was a fluke. Turns 3 through 6 went as normal. But when I went to WOT exiting snake to head toward the bridge, I only received about 20% power. Realizing there was a major problem, I closed the throttle and coasted to a place to safely pull off the track and shut it down. By this time, "low oil pressure" warning was displayed in DIC. Right before I shut it down, engine sounded bad and was making gurgling, knocking sounds.

A review of the PDR data shows that oil temp started slowly climbing above "track normal" 1.5 minutes prior, 3/4 way through previous lap. By the start of my final lap at T1, it had reached 300F and oil pressure was slowly dropping, now in the 40s rather than 50s. By the time engine power was reduced to 20%, oil pressure was just dropping below 30. In the 5 seconds that it took to safely slow down and pull off the track at engine idle, the pressure had dropped to 0.

Upon looking under the hood, no oil was lost (still at 3/4 mark on the dip stick) and no engine parts were ejected through the block. Trailing car video shows nothing unusual exited the tailpipes.

I'm no engine expert, but I'm guessing the cause of failure is likely an oil pump failure. My concern is premature wear of engine parts due to lack of circulating oil and possible higher oil temps. If there was indeed a pump failure, then oil wouldn't be circulating, which means that the oil temp probe (it's somewhere down low near the oil filter right?) reading 300F was probably underestimating the true temp in the upper part of the engine. And if that's the case, how much accelerated wear and tear might have been done to engine components that haven't already broken. Not sure how the water coolant figures into the mix, it remained at 212F throughout the session, including during the engine failure.

If Chevy tells me that oil pump failure is to blame and only the upper part of the engine was damaged and they want to rebuild it, should I try to insist that they replace the whole engine instead?
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Old 03-01-2022, 10:45 PM   #2
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Does sound like oil pump failure to me. I would defer to others on this one but I would guess that an engine tear down and oil analysis would go a long way In determining how much damage was done. Maybe cam/lifters would be adversely affected? Probably scoring in the cylinder walls? Main bearings and cam bearings too, for sure.
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Old 03-02-2022, 09:16 AM   #3
ember1205
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Sorry to hear this... Definitely sounds like it made for a very "not fun" day.

If it's determined to be an issue they will cover under warranty, it's really up to them how they'll handle it (rebuild versus replacement). If they ARE going to go the route of a rebuild, I would ensure the local area rep is involved and that you ask about the specific mechanic(s) that will be working on it. You have the opportunity to at least ask for certain aspects to be handled certain ways, but you don't necessarily have the ability to insist on replacement if GM believes repair is sufficient.

Regardless of whether it shows on the CarFax or not afterward, you may want to ask for some level of compensation from GM, maybe in the form of some accessories or similar, and you could also have a conversation with the Service Manager and the Sales Manager (maybe the General Manager as well) around trading the car for a new one "right away" as this would potentially give the dealership an additional stake in making certain the repairs are done right.

Hope you get it solved no matter how you go about it.
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Old 03-02-2022, 09:42 AM   #4
95 imp
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My guess...

If it is deemed warranty, depending on tear down, they will replace the motor. Doubtful GM is going to spend the money on a rebuild with a factory that churns out new ones as cheap, or cheaper. Couple that with the warranty issues after the fact.

It will depend on bearing/crank wear which way it goes.

On the flip side, they might deny warranty because the oil got too hot and thinned out
causing the failure. (Especially if you were not using oil rated for the track.)
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Old 03-02-2022, 09:53 AM   #5
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I'm sorry to hear that! I never made it to the track with my 2021 1SS 1LE, my engine failed at 500 miles!

Ember1205 is spot on in their recommendations - be your own advocate and insert yourself into the process. I took my car to the shop and just assumed they would handle it. My service writer initially was really good and I absolutely trusted him to make sure everything got done correctly. Big mistake.

My service writer told me GM initially wanted them to do all this diagnostic work on my engine, but when the techs dropped the oil pan and found it full of metal, GM relented and authorized a full engine replacement.

I specifically asked about the valve spring TSB when this was going on, that was a known issue for cars assembled for several months in mid-2020. I was told that wasn't the cause of my problem and my new engine wouldn't have that problem. A week after they installed the new engine it broke a valve spring. There's a bunch more to this story including the dealer lying to me about work they performed, missing and damaged parts, and continued issues with the car. Long story short I had no trust in the quality of their work and got tired of taking the car in over and over again, so I lemon'd it. I wish I had started that process the moment I found out it was going to need an engine.

I honestly have a very low opinion of mechanics these days, at least at dealerships. Most are just "parts changers", and not even very good at that.

To be honest, I would suggest you start looking into the lemon law process. My opinion is that the best a car will ever be is when it's factory fresh. If my experience is anything to go by, as soon as you start messing with stuff, you're inviting problems. And what I mean by that is there are so many auxiliary systems and things that have to be touched to do an engine replacement, there's a very high likelihood the parts changers are going to screw something else, or many other things up, like they did on my car.

Start looking into your state's lemon laws. In most places it's >30 days in the shop, which with the current supply issues your car will likely be (mine was there for 4 weeks at the end of 2020 before all the supply issues got bad). There are often other criteria, but it varies state to state. Virginia has a phone number you can call that's run by the State's Attorney's office where you can pay a small fee (~$20) and get a half hour phone consult with an attorney to discuss the merits of your lemon law case. Maybe your state has something similar? Also see if your state allows attorneys to recoup fees during lemon law representation, if so, there are probably attorneys that specialize in lemons and would be happy to review your potential case. I went through arbitration with GM and the BBB instead of pursuing an attorney. I eventually got GM to buy my car back, but it took 6 months and was a huge pain in my ass and I wish I'd gotten an attorney up front.

Regardless of how you choose to pursue this, I wish you nothing but the best of luck!
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Old 03-02-2022, 10:10 AM   #6
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Good luck and hopefully you get car back on the road without a major wait.

I’m very disappointed what’s going on with the oil pumps, lifters and valve springs on a newer Camaro.
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Old 03-02-2022, 10:12 AM   #7
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What year car and oil used?
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Old 03-02-2022, 11:09 AM   #8
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Flashbacks, aaaaahhhhhhhh!


Hope it gets taken care of. I sold mine when the engine failed.
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Old 03-02-2022, 11:43 AM   #9
LT1gen6
 
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Does Chevy warranty extend to cars used in racing/track/competition events?
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Old 03-02-2022, 11:50 AM   #10
ember1205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LT1gen6 View Post
Does Chevy warranty extend to cars used in racing/track/competition events?
Certain cars, like the Camaro, are warrantied with track use providing that they were originally built with that as a possible use in mind. You have to break the car in according to the High Performance Supplement guidance, use proper fluids and equipment, and prep the car correctly.
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Old 03-02-2022, 02:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N Camarolina View Post
If there was indeed a pump failure, then oil wouldn't be circulating, which means that the oil temp probe (it's somewhere down low near the oil filter right?) reading 300F was probably underestimating the true temp in the upper part of the engine. And if that's the case, how much accelerated wear and tear might have been done to engine components that haven't already broken. Not sure how the water coolant figures into the mix, it remained at 212F throughout the session, including during the engine failure.
This part I don't get, the discrepancy between oil temp and coolant temp.

the temp sensor is down near the filter. But even if it's not in the pan itself, I assume it measures temp of oil coming out of the pan. I know my oil temp lags behind my coolant temp by a good bit. So 300 degree oil in the pan while the coolant is 212 does not make sense to me. That's 10 qts of oil at 300 deg!
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Old 03-02-2022, 06:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctrlz View Post
This part I don't get, the discrepancy between oil temp and coolant temp.

the temp sensor is down near the filter. But even if it's not in the pan itself, I assume it measures temp of oil coming out of the pan. I know my oil temp lags behind my coolant temp by a good bit. So 300 degree oil in the pan while the coolant is 212 does not make sense to me. That's 10 qts of oil at 300 deg!
It might not be 10qts at 300* if it stopped circulating.
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Old 03-02-2022, 07:47 PM   #13
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Oh man... that sucks... I hope they get it fixed up for you.
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Old 03-02-2022, 08:40 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N Camarolina View Post
Was at VIR this past weekend, and the lapping was cut short mid day Saturday by engine failure. Had it towed on Chevy's dime 1.5 hrs to a dealer near my house. Waiting to hear on the diagnosis. Would love to hear your thoughts on my question at the bottom of the message regarding rebuild vs replacement (if I have any say in the matter, as this is a warrantee repair).

Some more details on what happened:

On the final lap, the 1st sign of trouble was accelerating out of T1, it felt like traction control was intervening to cut power slightly. Kind of perplexing, but thought it was a fluke. Turns 3 through 6 went as normal. But when I went to WOT exiting snake to head toward the bridge, I only received about 20% power. Realizing there was a major problem, I closed the throttle and coasted to a place to safely pull off the track and shut it down. By this time, "low oil pressure" warning was displayed in DIC. Right before I shut it down, engine sounded bad and was making gurgling, knocking sounds.

A review of the PDR data shows that oil temp started slowly climbing above "track normal" 1.5 minutes prior, 3/4 way through previous lap. By the start of my final lap at T1, it had reached 300F and oil pressure was slowly dropping, now in the 40s rather than 50s. By the time engine power was reduced to 20%, oil pressure was just dropping below 30. In the 5 seconds that it took to safely slow down and pull off the track at engine idle, the pressure had dropped to 0.

Upon looking under the hood, no oil was lost (still at 3/4 mark on the dip stick) and no engine parts were ejected through the block. Trailing car video shows nothing unusual exited the tailpipes.

I'm no engine expert, but I'm guessing the cause of failure is likely an oil pump failure. My concern is premature wear of engine parts due to lack of circulating oil and possible higher oil temps. If there was indeed a pump failure, then oil wouldn't be circulating, which means that the oil temp probe (it's somewhere down low near the oil filter right?) reading 300F was probably underestimating the true temp in the upper part of the engine. And if that's the case, how much accelerated wear and tear might have been done to engine components that haven't already broken. Not sure how the water coolant figures into the mix, it remained at 212F throughout the session, including during the engine failure.

If Chevy tells me that oil pump failure is to blame and only the upper part of the engine was damaged and they want to rebuild it, should I try to insist that they replace the whole engine instead?
Take the engine apart and see what happened.
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