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Old 10-07-2019, 11:44 PM   #43
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Dodge knows what their market is. The keep pushing the engine performance further. They come up with attention grabbing names. They build on those names by updating them.

Camaro is all alpha numeric names. They don't update horsepower. They don't have a drag focused car. They don't have the marketing and the one thing Camaro offers is handling, which most people don't consider a major factor.

I think GM should consider bringing back the Chevelle, make it off the LWB Alpha and give it all the Corvette engine options.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:47 PM   #44
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What people want in a their cars has drastically changed in the past 30 years or so.
Damn was 79 really 40 years ago.

It’s sad. But on the other hand it’s great that the 3 domestic sport coupes are still around and really fantastic cars with tons of power and great handling ride and breaking and nice interiors.

On the plus side there is still a healthy supply of camaros trans ams and corvettes plus A bodies from the 60s 70s and 80s that are worthy of rebuilding into great driving cars.
I have a 71 done in that vein. It’s more raw but has a very similar performance envelope to my 6th gen. Worse case I’ll drive cars like that for as long as I am able and care about performance cars. Not to mention all the C4/5/6/7 out there we can keep driving.
So we have good options even if Camaro goes away. Not that I am hoping for that.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:51 PM   #45
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Would LOVE to see an alpha based chevelle.
Similar size to the gen 3 CTSV.
Give it a LT1.
I would buy one to go along with my SS conv Camaro.
But I don’t think it would sell well. Maybe tho considering how well the challenger is doing
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:41 AM   #46
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"What people want in their cars has drastically changed in the past 30 years or so."

The modern SUV - really CUVs are what people are buying - has taught people that you can have decent power, handling and comfort in a big box that carries all your stuff. I couldn't have imagined 30 years ago that even my big 4-door Impala with its huge trunk would be considered a car with "car" limitations, but that's how it's looked at now by most buyers looking for a mainstream daily driver. In this landscape Challenger is a severely compromised play car you buy for looks and motor, and Camaro is practically a 2-seater Miata with a V8. Things have changed.

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Old 10-08-2019, 05:08 AM   #47
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It is mind boggling to me how the ancient Challenger has been able to overtake both the Mustang and Camaro in sales. Kudos to Fiat for knowing how to market a car, and knowing how to make a car that appeals to more of a mass market than Mustang and Camaro. Hell, they even make an AWD Challenger.



Having grown up in the 60's and 70's when two door sedans and coupes were a big part of the market, it is scary how low sales of all cars have gone, let alone the few two doors left. Wrap your heads around this: in 1979, Pontiac sold 117,000 Trans Ams. Not Firebirds, just Trans Ams! All Firebirds combined were over 200,000, more than all Challenger/Mustang/Camaro combined today. Then you had Camaro, Mustang, and a whole raft of other 2-door sport coupes like Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, Thunderbird, Dodge Magnum, Pontiac LeMans, Chevy Malibu/Laguna, Olds Cutlass, Buick Regal, etc. And Corvette, of course. Hell, GM sold 54,000 1979 Corvettes, more than they will sell Camaros in 2019. (GM sold 35,000 Vettes in 2019).



Chevy, Ford and Fiat decided several years ago to go upscale with the Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger which is 180 degrees from the original cars, which were designed to be inexpensive and available to young people. Now the Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger appeal mostly to people like myself who have fond memories of the originals. What GM, Ford, or Chrysler vehicle for 2020 appeals to someone under 30, and is not a pickup truck or a Jeep? They don't have one.



Meanwhile, Honda is killing it with the Civic, the Civic Si, and the Civic Type R. They sell 30,000 Civics a MONTH. They provide young people with an inexpensive entry point from which they can trade up. Once they age out of a Civic, they have the Accord or several SUVs or Acura. This *used* to be the US car maker's strategy, give the kid a really cool car to start, and keep them as they got older. If they got away from Chevy, they had the other GM brands to hook them.

Good points, COmaro.

A truism in Sales: Price drives behavior.

In new car sales, volume is all about affordability. Here are the numbers to back it up.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:00 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Gunkk View Post
Good points, COmaro.

A truism in Sales: Price drives behavior.

In new car sales, volume is all about affordability. Here are the numbers to back it up.
Very good points. Even the last of the 4th gen f-bodies were far more affordable relative to average income. You could get a loaded Camaro Z28 in 2002 for under $25k. Leather, t-tops, power everything. And incomes have really not gone up that much from 2002 to 2019. Yet we all know what a 2SS goes for now.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:35 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Joe Remi View Post
"What people want in their cars has drastically changed in the past 30 years or so."

The modern SUV - really CUVs are what people are buying - has taught people that you can have decent power, handling and comfort in a big box that carries all your stuff. I couldn't have imagined 30 years ago that even my big 4-door Impala with its huge trunk would be considered a car with "car" limitations, but that's how it's looked at now by most buyers looking for a mainstream daily driver. In this landscape Challenger is a severely compromised play car you buy for looks and motor, and Camaro is practically a 2-seater Miata with a V8. Things have changed.
We really only have to look at the marketing of automobiles in general today. If performance is even mentioned, it is very brief at best. What people, in general, are concerned and excited about are tech and safety. While this is all fine and good, these features, along with all of the mandated safety and efficiency has driven the cost of these machines through the roof.

Family life in general has also changed dramatically since 1979 as well. That was about the time the trend was just beginning for the two income household. Then, a family could get away with mom having the family wagon, remember the "Country Squire", and dad could have the 'sports car'. However, with the divorce rate hovering at over 50%, and the managing of schedules in multi-career households, both parents have to have room for the kids, and all of their activities. Oh, and where did all of this, I have to buy my kid a car stuff come from?

Point is, it's not that people don't want these cars, it's just that they do not fit into the lifestyle or the budget.
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:03 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by c4racer View Post
Would LOVE to see an alpha based chevelle.
Similar size to the gen 3 CTSV.
Give it a LT1.
I would buy one to go along with my SS conv Camaro.
But I don’t think it would sell well. Maybe tho considering how well the challenger is doing
I bet it would sell better than the Camaro, unless they make it as impractical as possible.
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:12 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by c4racer View Post
Would LOVE to see an alpha based chevelle.
Similar size to the gen 3 CTSV.
Give it a LT1.
I would buy one to go along with my SS conv Camaro.
But I don’t think it would sell well. Maybe tho considering how well the challenger is doing
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Originally Posted by Bhobbs View Post
I bet it would sell better than the Camaro, unless they make it as impractical as possible.
I think it would sell very well. I also think they would have sold a lot more ATS-V's if they put the LT1 in it too.
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:12 PM   #52
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Good points, COmaro.

A truism in Sales: Price drives behavior.

In new car sales, volume is all about affordability. Here are the numbers to back it up.

Two biggest accelerators of this are the natural inflationary tendencies and the second is Obama signing the 2012 EPA mileage standards. That cost manufacturers billions upon billions of dollars in drivetrain and body lightening to get where we are today. The cost just got passed down to use the consumer.
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:26 PM   #53
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Good points, COmaro.

A truism in Sales: Price drives behavior.

In new car sales, volume is all about affordability. Here are the numbers to back it up.

Great numbers, thanks for reminding us how expensive cars have become.



In addition to cars being more expensive compared to average incomes, it is more difficult today for young people to get to that average, or in other words, they attain the average later than past generations. Once they get there, housing, health insurance, car insurance, license fees are all proportionately higher, and on top of that, many people have student loan payments, which I had never even heard of until the late-80's.



I knew guys a year or two out of high school in the late 70's buying Corvettes, Trans Ams, Monte Carlos, and every other car aimed at younger people, either paying cash, or on two year notes. I had a neighbor who was 20 who bought a 1979 Corvette with money he made as a bricklayer, and he lived in a nice apartment as well. Try buying a new Vette two years out of high school on a manual labor job today. I had another friend who bought a 1978 Trans Am brand new and took delivery the day he graduated from high school. When the '79 T/A came out, he traded the '78 for a '79. When gas skyrocketed in 1980, he traded the '79 T/A for a Buick Regal, after he had dumped a bunch of money into modding the T/A. This was all done with money he earned in high school and college.



A different era, for sure. Of course, no one had cell phone bills, Netflix/gaming/cable bills, health insurance, $1000/mo rooms in three bedroom apartments, $15 movie tickets, $10 burritos, etc. I feel sorry for young people today. You could actually live on a minimum wage job then, and jobs paying 2x or 3x the minimum were easy to find.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:28 PM   #54
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I think GM should consider bringing back the Chevelle, make it off the LWB Alpha and give it all the Corvette engine options.
I agree. Sadly, I don't think many prospective buyers are interested in the current sixth-generation Camaro because it transcended the segment and evolved into an excellent sports car. Unfortunately, this evolution resulted in many compromises that affect the practicality of the Camaro as a daily driver. Therefore, it occurs to me that GM would be wise to pursue your strategy: the Corvette will remain GM's sports car and a new, reinvented Chevelle would serve as GM's muscle car.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:31 PM   #55
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yeah that's not going to happen. it's not opinion, GM is not headed in the direction of making large cars again. Aside from the Challenger, when people these days want a big vehicle they buy an suv . so talk all you want about a Chevelle, bring back Pontiac, bring back this or that. It's not happening.
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:33 PM   #56
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Well this turned into a piss and moan thread...

Yup, gas is more expensive, wages are lower. Welcome to reality. The insanely cheap oil of 50 years ago is never coming back, nor are the cushy high wage jobs associated with it. I know plenty of people with good jobs, from manual tradesman all the way to white collar professionals. They're all doing just fine. They're driving nice cars, actually, nice trucks. They're not going on big vacations all the time, no one is flying as much that's for sure. But the sky is not falling. The tech industry is gigantic and is here to stay. The way some people here make it sound, you'd think we live in north korea. Come on, be realistic. We're all on computers connected to the internet discussing one of the best performance cars ever produced. Things aren't that bad.
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