[mariojas]

Originally Posted by 1fastz28

Money, it costs tons of money to develop a new manual transmission and if the take rate isn't high enough, it isn't financially viable. While we are all automotive enthusiasts, most people simply don't care, and car companies are a business, and the business is making money. The new Z has a manual transmission (and chassis) that is largely from the last generation just tweaked. The Supra's new manual is straight from an existing BMW, so little R&D cost. I'd be surprised if any major automotive manufacturer (aside from maybe Porsche) ever develops a new manual gearbox.

That's weird. Car manufactures don't refresh cars, but they refresh their parts... Why? Just produce the same parts. Give as "old" Tremec gearbox for ever. Why develop new?

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by mariojas

That's weird. Car manufactures don't refresh cars, but they refresh their parts... Why? Just produce the same parts. Give as "old" Tremec gearbox for ever. Why develop new?

I assume they still need to spend a bunch of money on testing and certification. For example, in the Supra I heard they had tweak the suspension a bit and exhaust to accommodate the manual trans. There are also different regulation for exhaust level with manual. Lots of folks are annoyed that the Nissan Z with the manual gets a quieter exhaust than the 9 speed auto.

[UnknownJinX]

I agree that manuals will attract fewer people, but those fewer people are willing to pay better money for a stick.

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Agreed. I was surprised when Mazda released the new ND version in 2016 that the manual trans was built-in house vs. sourcing one from Aisan like they do with the GR86. I know they have some interesting gearing, for example 6th gear is 1:1. They were also after serious weight savings so both may have played a role in the decision.

Now, they have been through like 6 revisions since its release due to failures but at least they built one.

Actually, ND transmission was based on the one in Series 2 RX-8 from 09~11 Model Years(Series 1 RX-8, aka 04~08 Model Years, used an Aisin box), so a lot of the R&D was already spent. I don't know for sure but perhaps later NC might have also used the same basic design of gearbox from Series 2 RX-8. They just focused on weight-saving with the ND box.

The supposed reason the early ones fail is that ND was initially designed to only have the 1.5 SkyActiv engines in them, which are sold in some markets outside of North America like Europe and Japan. Mazda North America stepped in though and said it's not enough power for North America, so they shoehorned the 2.0 in there, which is a bit too much for the lightweight gearbox designed for 1.5(1.5 models never had trouble with the manual gearbox). That's also why the power figure and redline were kinda lackluster for ND1 - the 2.0 was rushed in there. They addressed those with ND2.

[Gen6cyl]

I like the way it is now, paying less for a new car with a manual.I would not have bought my Camaro if I couldn't have got a manual.My Camaro was made 6-7 months before I got it new.So it sat at dealership a while.I rescued it, it's been love ever since.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

I agree that manuals will attract fewer people, but those fewer people are willing to pay better money for a stick.



Actually, ND transmission was based on the one in Series 2 RX-8 from 09~11 Model Years(Series 1 RX-8, aka 04~08 Model Years, used an Aisin box), so a lot of the R&D was already spent. I don't know for sure but perhaps later NC might have also used the same basic design of gearbox from Series 2 RX-8. They just focused on weight-saving with the ND box.

The supposed reason the early ones fail is that ND was initially designed to only have the 1.5 SkyActiv engines in them, which are sold in some markets outside of North America like Europe and Japan. Mazda North America stepped in though and said it's not enough power for North America, so they shoehorned the 2.0 in there, which is a bit too much for the lightweight gearbox designed for 1.5(1.5 models never had trouble with the manual gearbox). That's also why the power figure and redline were kinda lackluster for ND1 - the 2.0 was rushed in there. They addressed those with ND2.

Yep, I owned a 2016 and 2021 ND2. Fun little cars and the gearbox is great IMO.

[1fastz28]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Yep, I owned a 2016 and 2021 ND2. Fun little cars and the gearbox is great IMO.

I had an ND2, i absolutely loved it, but I love my Camaro more.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

This is pretty accurate in my area. Don't get me wrong, it will sell but it may take a little longer since you are limiting buying pool quite a bit.

But they're so much more fun that I should have ordered it anyway

[Gen6cyl]

Yep,a manual makes the Camaro a little more special. It's a deal breaker for me.

[MR's 2SS]

So... Lots of points here.
I think theres a difference between a performance driver and an enthusiast driver. Both just terms Im separating to make a point.
A performance driver for my purpose here is someone taking the car to the track and racing it.
An enthusiast driver may go to the track but the pure enjoyment of driving the car is his reason for buying.
I think at this point in time we all can agree the autos are no longer "slush boxes" and its obvious the performance achievable is higher with the modern autos.
F1 being arguably the pinnacle.
BUt on the 1/4 mile you just cant shift as fast as a computer any longer.
Faster times are achievable with less skillful manipulation of gears. Not just the sequential movement of gears but the choosing of shift points as well.
As for pure driving fun... cant beat rowing through the gears by hand.
For me I can have more fun on the street blasting through gears without actually going fast enough to turn my license into a distant memory.
Not setting any records.. Just making some great noises and having fun doing it.

[JimRockford]

bump bump woot toot for What Jersey MR2s 2SS said right up here ^^^^^ .

also having stickshift is a good way to have factory brakes last way over 100k miles, all sorts of pad left minimal runout on SS sedan factory brakes at 98k miles. they squeak sometimes though, had the TSB done all the times over they years.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by JSH

But they're so much more fun that I should have ordered it anyway

Agreed, definitely more fun unless you are stuck in traffic. I have owned both over the years but I went with the A10 in the ZL1 since I felt it is the better transmission for ZL1. The gearing is so tall in the M6 in the ZL1 that you can't really wind it out on the street as you hit 80mph+ in 2nd gear. This is not a Miata gear box where you are winding out the top of 3rd at 7,500rpm and you are still under the speed limit. There is also the annoying "bog" issue.

As you know, the A10 rips through the gears, it has a playful character for an automatic. Keep it in Sport Mode and don't forget to blip the gas pedal to engage performance shift mode when the mood strikes. It will hold gears and keep the rpm over 4k and rev match downshifts as you brake.

It is a great piece of engineering but I do agree there is no replacement for a good manual when it comes to driving engagement.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/05...hat-new-shift/

[MR's 2SS]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Agreed, definitely more fun unless you are stuck in traffic. I have owned both over the years but I went with the A10 in the ZL1 since I felt it is the better transmission for ZL1. The gearing is so tall in the M6 in the ZL1 that you can't really wind it out on the street as you hit 80mph+ in 2nd gear. This is not a Miata gear box where you are winding out the top of 3rd at 7,500rpm and you are still under the speed limit. There is also the annoying "bog" issue.

As you know, the A10 rips through the gears, it has a playful character for an automatic. Keep it in Sport Mode and don't forget to blip the gas pedal to engage performance shift mode when the mood strikes. It will hold gears and keep the rpm over 4k and rev match downshifts as you brake.

It is a great piece of engineering but I do agree there is no replacement for a good manual when it comes to driving engagement.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/05...hat-new-shift/

All good points. But I never minded being stuck in traffic with a manual either. 25 years in large trucks with 13, 15 or 18 speed trans and oversized loads at times close to 200,000 lbs and I spent a lot of that time sitting in bumper to bumper.
Might have had a fat leg...but if first is too high it is a chore getting going.
I can almost see that in the Camaro. It did take me a bit to get comfy starting off. Its all good now though.
My wife was daily driving the car last year and is smooth as glass.
No bumper to bumper on her commute though.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by MR's 2SS

All good points. But I never minded being stuck in traffic with a manual either. 25 years in large trucks with 13, 15 or 18 speed trans and oversized loads at times close to 200,000 lbs and I spent a lot of that time sitting in bumper to bumper.
Might have had a fat leg...but if first is too high it is a chore getting going.
I can almost see that in the Camaro. It did take me a bit to get comfy starting off. Its all good now though.
My wife was daily driving the car last year and is smooth as glass.
No bumper to bumper on her commute though.

Yep, the newer Camaro and Corvettes have much lighter clutches and Tremec 6060 is very smooth. It is sad to think these things will be non-existent soon, to be replaced by single speed EV motors.

[mariojas]

Originally Posted by Gen6cyl

Yep,a manual makes the Camaro a little more special. It's a deal breaker for me.

Yup. I love A8 in Charger, but Camaro HAD TO BE manual to feel different enough. That what I thought before buying There is more to it. But nevertheless - I enjoy driving, enthusiast per se, so manual it is.