[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Slaloms

MJK, running in PTM Race might not be a good idea anymore. You can see in the PDR how often traction control is being activated on corner exits, thus you might be getting a false impression of available rear grip. In PTM Race, traction control will still be active, however stability control will not. Easy to imagine a scenario when rear tires are already at their longitudinal limit (when traction control is working), and then any slight lateral request could result in less than ideal situations.

Probably best to run with everything off (press and hold), or one of the lower Sport settings. Just my thoughts, never enjoy seeing any videos like the S2k/Lotus, and glad you made it out ok.

Thanks for sharing, Road Atlanta is still a bucket list track for me.

Interesting thoughts, but id beg to differ on the suggestion that no TC is safer. I am yet to see anyone lose it on corner exit in PTM race no matter the circumstances or experience level. Turning it around, if the rears are at their lateral limit, the TC will assist in not exceeding overall grip limits when getting to power. Without it, the driver has to rely on their skill in sensing both (lateral and longitudinal) limits to keep the rear in check. I have tested both rather extensively and IMO (for whatever it is worth) TC provides an extra security blanket on exits and hence makes the car a bit safer to drive. Especially when the tires are starting to go off.
And of course TC plays no role in corner entries.

I too dont like to see vids like these. But they provide a good reminder about maintaining proper balance as key priority. Especially on undulating tracks. Turning and then braking (or even lifting) downhill in a fast corner always ends the same way. And even Stabilitrak wont perform full on miracles if speeds and loads are sufficiently high as it relies on traction of tires to intervene. But it should (could?) provide a bit of a grace regarding necessary correction time. Just my 2 cents.

Cheers!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Interesting thoughts, but id beg to differ on the suggestion that no TC is safer. I am yet to see anyone lose it on corner exit in PTM race no matter the circumstances or experience level. Turning it around, if the rears are at their lateral limit, the TC will assist in not exceeding overall grip limits when getting to power. Without it, the driver has to rely on their skill in sensing both (lateral and longitudinal) limits to keep the rear in check. I have tested both rather extensively and IMO (for whatever it is worth) TC provides an extra security blanket on exits and hence makes the car a bit safer to drive. Especially when the tires are starting to go off.
And of course TC plays no role in corner entries.

I guess it might come down to whether - or to what extent - any driver starts relying on TC to allow him to drive harder than his natural ability can fully support.

Actually, I thought I saw the TC light come on before hearing the engine sound change at least a couple of times. Not sure what that might mean.


Norm

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I guess it might come down to whether - or to what extent - any driver starts relying on TC to allow him to drive harder than his natural ability can fully support.

Actually, I thought I saw the TC light come on before hearing the engine sound change at least a couple of times. Not sure what that might mean.


Norm

The TC light does seem to come on quite a lot more on the PDR than it actually activates on the car. Not sure what the cause of that is. It's possible the light doesn't even come on it the gauge cluster but I'm not going to be able to confirm that unless I ever run an in car camera.

I respect the opinion that I shouldn't be leaning on TC and I do run assists off at AutoX. However I'm not looking to take that chance at tracks like RA. I would rather see in the after session video where I might be leaning too heavily on the PTM. It does me no good to wad the car up with assists off when I could have had PTM on and note in the PDR video where I potentially too reliant on it.

Bottom line I think I'm a moderately quick driver but I'm still multiple seconds off the real hot shoes that are in these cars. I'm fine running 1:39ish on OEM tires and having fun instead of coming home without a car. I'm not a TT driver I'm just having fun at track days.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by mjk3888

The TC light does seem to come on quite a lot more on the PDR than it actually activates on the car. Not sure what the cause of that is. It's possible the light doesn't even come on it the gauge cluster but I'm not going to be able to confirm that unless I ever run an in car camera.

I respect the opinion that I shouldn't be leaning on TC and I do run assists off at AutoX. However I'm not looking to take that chance at tracks like RA. I would rather see in the after session video where I might be leaning too heavily on the PTM. It does me no good to wad the car up with assists off when I could have had PTM on and note in the PDR video where I potentially too reliant on it.

Bottom line I think I'm a moderately quick driver but I'm still multiple seconds off the real hot shoes that are in these cars. I'm fine running 1:39ish on OEM tires and having fun instead of coming home without a car. I'm not a TT driver I'm just having fun at track days.

My thoughts exactly. Under vastly most conditions all the TC is doing is maximizing exit speed by limiting any excessive tire slip which could lead to tire spin, loss of rear traction and delayed exit (and potential oversteer if one were to really over do power delivery). I run the car in PTM Race and except for very few cases (of silly driver inputs) have never even noticed power being reduced in any way. So if one doesnt stomp on a gas pedal at apex the intervention will be minute. If one doesnt need to make steering correction on exit all is fine and TC is doing its job as designed. And as present in many a top pro level sports car (like IMSA, etc). Either way, the TC will assist in protecting the rears from overheating prematurely. So if anything, more traction will be available for longer during a stint, including corner entries as well.

PTM Race TC allows most slip and if one overdrives it the car may still require mild driver corrections. Just nearly not as active as with it off. PTM Sport 2 allows for less TC slip and that's why GM recommends it (over Race) when tires might be getting too hot.

Regardless, most spins are NOT because of TC somehow creating a false sense of security, as TC is absent in corner phases where most spins occur. If one overdrives corner entry, starts a turn and then lifts (or worse: brakes) vs applying throttle to balance a car while it is doing most of its directional change and the rear is very light - results will always be the same. Especially when the track heads downhill which multiplies weight transfer effect.

Good for you MJK for stating up front why you thought the spin occured. Most folks will blame everything else
Have i ever spun out? Of course! Was it always a driver error? Of course! (Apart from oil on track what the hell else would it be???). The key is to learn from what happened and not to repeated it again. That's how we become better drivers. Not that i would ever suggest spinning a car just to learn!

Most importantly: let's have bags of fun out there and use nannies (or not) however we feel fit for us as individuals. That's exactly why they exist. Cheers!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Good for you MJK for stating up front why you thought the spin occured. Most folks will blame everything else
Have i ever spun out? Of course! Was it always a driver error? Of course! (Apart from oil on track what the hell else would it be???). The key is to learn from what happened and not to repeated it again. That's how we become better drivers. Not that i would ever suggest spinning a car just to learn!

Well I once spun at Daytona during an endurance race that happened to occur during a minor tropical storm. It was still my fault though for driving too fast given the weather. I have almost spun due to oil but luckily saw the car that dumped the oil started smoking/etc so I avoided most of it.

As for PTM Race, I use it too. Might as well. Like the OP this isn't a TT car for me.

[TrackClub]

Well my Weekly Speed Secrets from Ross Bentley just arrived in my inbox and guess what? A very interesting blurb from Ross re my point above speaking of balancing the car. Here it goes, just a quick cut and paste specific to this issue. Ref 2nd par below:

Speed Secrets Glossary
“In a spin, both feet in”: If you spin, your main objective should then be to limit the distance your car travels (reducing the chance of hitting something), and keep the engine running. As you spin, it’s possible for the car to be moving backwards (as if reversing), but with the engine still trying to turn the driving wheels forward. Combined with heavy braking to slow and/or stop the car, it’s possible to stall the engine. Given all of this, if you begin to spin, your left foot should immediately depress the clutch (left foot “in”), while your right foot applies the brakes hard (right foot “in”). Therefore, in a spin, both feet in.

“If in doubt, throttle out”: Every time I hear this piece of advice I want to say, “But, but, but…” The advice suggests that if you’re not sure whether you can make a corner, lift off the throttle. That works sometimes, but sometimes it makes the problem worse. If you wanted advice on what to do with the throttle after making a mistake, I would not tell you “throttle out.” I’d have to say, ‘It depends….”

“If in doubt, flat out”: This quote or saying has been attributed the great rally legend, Colin McRae, and should never be confused with the “if in doubt, throttle out” advice just defined above. McRae was famous for being a very aggressive driver, and his driving style seemed to be based on “If you don’t know where the road goes or whether you’re going to make a corner, go to full throttle.” It worked for McRae – until it didn’t, on occasion.

[BMR Sales]

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

I'd say he tried to drive out of it, that's where he screwed up. Once he knew he was taking a trip through the grass he slowed down a bit but tried to get back on it (at least a lil bit) once he got back on pavement, that's when he lost it. Should have just stayed on the brake, got the car slowed WAY DOWN and then carried on.

It's HPDE not a race, not taking a few seconds to collect yourself after an off is not worth crashing your car.

definitely tried to drive out of it instead of getting calmed down. You can see his Tach that the Revs were still pretty high.

[BMR Sales]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Well my Weekly Speed Secrets from Ross Bentley just arrived in my inbox and guess what? A very interesting blurb from Ross re my point above speaking of balancing the car. Here it goes, just a quick cut and paste specific to this issue. Ref 2nd par below:

Speed Secrets Glossary
“In a spin, both feet in”: If you spin, your main objective should then be to limit the distance your car travels (reducing the chance of hitting something), and keep the engine running. As you spin, it’s possible for the car to be moving backwards (as if reversing), but with the engine still trying to turn the driving wheels forward. Combined with heavy braking to slow and/or stop the car, it’s possible to stall the engine. Given all of this, if you begin to spin, your left foot should immediately depress the clutch (left foot “in”), while your right foot applies the brakes hard (right foot “in”). Therefore, in a spin, both feet in.

“If in doubt, throttle out”: Every time I hear this piece of advice I want to say, “But, but, but…” The advice suggests that if you’re not sure whether you can make a corner, lift off the throttle. That works sometimes, but sometimes it makes the problem worse. If you wanted advice on what to do with the throttle after making a mistake, I would not tell you “throttle out.” I’d have to say, ‘It depends….”

“If in doubt, flat out”: This quote or saying has been attributed the great rally legend, Colin McRae, and should never be confused with the “if in doubt, throttle out” advice just defined above. McRae was famous for being a very aggressive driver, and his driving style seemed to be based on “If you don’t know where the road goes or whether you’re going to make a corner, go to full throttle.” It worked for McRae – until it didn’t, on occasion.

Just don't use these in a Porsche 911, especially an early one. You have to re-train your brain to think like George Costanza - do the opposite!

[Laststandard]

Coming from an off road background - 'when in doubt, throttle out' means to smash the throttle until you're out of the hole / obstacle

[Provoste]

Sorry, late to party. I’d echo the comments by Trackclub and MJK. As we all know, the SS 1LE is SUPREMELY stable yet neutral. As MKJ found, when you push the envelope she moves around a bit, yes- throttle application when you felt that rear yaw would have likely saved the spin, but a great learning experience if you ask me. Your lap looks really solid, I’d consider using 3rd not 2nd at the chicane before the bridge...less shifting usually faster, especially when you have 450+ lbft with a min speed around 54-55mph. Side note, I’m racing a S2000 at Road Atlanta with WRL in July, can’t wait!

[Jimbeau11]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I guess it might come down to whether - or to what extent - any driver starts relying on TC to allow him to drive harder than his natural ability can fully support.

Actually, I thought I saw the TC light come on before hearing the engine sound change at least a couple of times. Not sure what that might mean.


Norm

Yes you are.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Jimbeau11

Yes you are.

Ummm, nope. From actual testing, TC in my car is utterly worthless unless it's that skimpy 325 ft*lbs max torque number that you're talking about. Even so, I turn the electronic one off just about every time I drive anyway.


Norm

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Provoste

Sorry, late to party. I’d echo the comments by Trackclub and MJK. As we all know, the SS 1LE is SUPREMELY stable yet neutral. As MKJ found, when you push the envelope she moves around a bit, yes- throttle application when you felt that rear yaw would have likely saved the spin, but a great learning experience if you ask me. Your lap looks really solid, I’d consider using 3rd not 2nd at the chicane before the bridge...less shifting usually faster, especially when you have 450+ lbft with a min speed around 54-55mph. Side note, I’m racing a S2000 at Road Atlanta with WRL in July, can’t wait!

Hadn't thought of using throttle to bring the rear back. I was thinking maybe if I had released the brakes the rear would've stop trying to come around the front.

Road Atlanta is a blast! I would love to see what time your 1LE would run around there. I've seen some really fast guys with different wheel tire setups run sub 1:35 there. Both still on 200+TW tires. I was only able to manage 1:38.9 with brand new SC3s up front and slightly more worn rears. The event where this slide occured I only managed 1:40.0 tires were obviously older and it was about 100f ambient all weekend.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Ummm, nope. From actual testing, TC in my car is utterly worthless unless it's that skimpy 325 ft*lbs max torque number that you're talking about. Even so, I turn the electronic one off just about every time I drive anyway.


Norm

I can attest to it as i had tracked my Stang for a few yrs and TC was completely unpredictable if not outright dangerous even in the wet.
Always had to turn it off but the car felt well balanced and easy to drive anyway.