Oil question

[2010_camaro]

Ok, here is a run down on the engine.
6.0 iron block, stock bore, stock stroke, lunati H beam rods, weisco pistions, OE ls3 crank, LS 3 heads, ARP everything, TSP cam, meling pump, twin journal bearing turbos.
Oil cooler: N/A
Fuel: E85
Boost: 26lbs
WHP: 1000+
Ring gap: .025 upper and lower .015 oil rings
Rod bearing: Clevite HX race STD bearings w/-.001 added clearance

Main bearings: Clevite HX race STD bearings w/-.001 added clearance.

This car is full weight with AC. I drive it all the time and I'm never easy on it.
I run Brad Penn 10w40 normally.
Recently I had a thrust bearing fail and also found that I had a rocker trunion fail. I just happened to see the rocker failure on disassembly.

My question is, should I be running a thicker oil like 20w50?

[sinisterlsx510]

I ran a vr1 20w50 in my 408 in my silverado back in the day.. it was a high comp motor

[Russell James]

Neither of your failures had anything to do with the oil. Brad Penn is good stuff. I wouldn't go thicker. 10w40 is on the edge of being too thick for street performance. Next change, I'd mix at least half 10w30.

Thrust bearings fail because of a clutch or trans install problem. Something is forcing the crank forward. Often a mismatch of parts... such as wrong pilot bearing or bellhousing dimensions off putting the input shaft too deep in the crank.

When your trans went in, did it slide in easily to butt up against the back of the engine? Or were the bolts used to draw it up that last little bit? When there is a bind, and people use the bolts to air impact it in the last little bit... is when that bind pushes the crank forward and wears out the thrust bearing.

I saw one recently where machine shop, assembly shop, customer all blaming each other for a wiped out thrust bearing and destroyed engine. The real cause was the aftermarket bellhousing was not indexed/centered to the crank centerline. When the engine was installed, and jammed forward with an impact on the bolts... the input shaft was off center to the pilot bearing and jammed some of the pilot needles into the end of crank. End result was zero crank end play wiped out the thrust bearing in a couple hundred miles.

After everything in the driveline is installed, pry the crank forward and back. Still should have crank end play within spec. No crank end play... something is jamming the crank forward. fix before first start or the thrust bearing is doomed.

Trunion wise, use higher quality trunions. Assuming no other problems like coil bind or PTV contact.

Your original plan of BP 10w40 is fine...great stuff. I use Brad Penn 20w50 in a BBC drag car. But, I heat the pan up before the first cold start. Otherwise it is way too thick for a cold start and spikes the oil pressure. That engine has huge clearances. I def would not use that thick in an LS engine.

[KB85]

Originally Posted by Russell James

Neither of your failures had anything to do with the oil. Brad Penn is good stuff. I wouldn't go thicker. 10w40 is on the edge of being too thick for street performance. Next change, I'd mix at least half 10w30.

Thrust bearings fail because of a clutch or trans install problem. Something is forcing the crank forward. Often a mismatch of parts... such as wrong pilot bearing or bellhousing dimensions off putting the input shaft too deep in the crank.

When your trans went in, did it slide in easily to butt up against the back of the engine? Or were the bolts used to draw it up that last little bit? When there is a bind, and people use the bolts to air impact it in the last little bit... is when that bind pushes the crank forward and wears out the thrust bearing.

I saw one recently where machine shop, assembly shop, customer all blaming each other for a wiped out thrust bearing and destroyed engine. The real cause was the aftermarket bellhousing was not indexed/centered to the crank centerline. When the engine was installed, and jammed forward with an impact on the bolts... the input shaft was off center to the pilot bearing and jammed some of the pilot needles into the end of crank. End result was zero crank end play wiped out the thrust bearing in a couple hundred miles.

After everything in the driveline is installed, pry the crank forward and back. Still should have crank end play within spec. No crank end play... something is jamming the crank forward. fix before first start or the thrust bearing is doomed.

Trunion wise, use higher quality trunions. Assuming no other problems like coil bind or PTV contact.

Your original plan of BP 10w40 is fine...great stuff. I use Brad Penn 20w50 in a BBC drag car. But, I heat the pan up before the first cold start. Otherwise it is way too thick for a cold start and spikes the oil pressure. That engine has huge clearances. I def would not use that thick in an LS engine.

good advice to a lot of people out here

[sdynak]

Originally Posted by KB85

good advice to a lot of people out here

I'll 2nd that.. thanks Russell for sharing your experience. Probably just saved some real headaches and wallet pinch.

[pnwdan]

Happens from torque converter ballooning in autos too. A lot of people dont realize it.

[2010_camaro]

The trans was slid in before tightening the bolts. I've seen several ears broke for trans from trying to draw them in before.

I'm running the ACT twin race clutch. Its entire clutch weight is like 22lbs. It has a hard engagement. But I also no lift shift on full boost

[StreetRage320]

I am not qualified to answer that question, but I did find this "ask Al" thread interesting on GM's oil recommendations. yes I know different cars/engines, but for what it's worth:

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535476

[2010_camaro]

This engine lasted awhile before the bearing failed.
The bearing failed after SCT. I did 10+ pulls back to back. No cool down. The oil probably had 2-3000 miles on it. Not easy miles either. When I drained the oil it smelled like e85.
I was wondering if the viscosity broke down that's why I was wondering about 20w50.
The car Is always warmed up before driving and normal oil temps are 215-220 with AC off.

When the bearing was pulled it only just started to wear so I got it just in time.
Far as the rocker goes I think the comp trunion kit I had was just old and failed. They been in the car for 30k+ miles.

[christianchevell]

I use driven racing oil LS30 specifically made for modified LS engines, I break in with BR30. You can go to their website for bulletins and tech articles, best I could find. Full synth made for racing with all the right stuff made 5w30 for a ls oiling system. And I don't run it a full 5 thousand miles usually, I only drive about that in a year commuting. And yes the comp trunnion upgrade has been known to fail, and I am switching to bushings when I do the springs at 25k.

[xc_SS/RS]

Originally Posted by 2010_camaro

This engine lasted awhile before the bearing failed.
The bearing failed after SCT. I did 10+ pulls back to back. No cool down. The oil probably had 2-3000 miles on it. Not easy miles either. When I drained the oil it smelled like e85.
I was wondering if the viscosity broke down that's why I was wondering about 20w50.
The car Is always warmed up before driving and normal oil temps are 215-220 with AC off.

When the bearing was pulled it only just started to wear so I got it just in time.
Far as the rocker goes I think the comp trunion kit I had was just old and failed. They been in the car for 30k+ miles.

how about bronze bushings for the rockers? https://www.briantooleyracing.com/sm...grade-kit.html

[Russell James]

Originally Posted by 2010_camaro

This engine lasted awhile before the bearing failed.
The bearing failed after SCT. I did 10+ pulls back to back. No cool down. The oil probably had 2-3000 miles on it. Not easy miles either. When I drained the oil it smelled like e85.
I was wondering if the viscosity broke down that's why I was wondering about 20w50.
The car Is always warmed up before driving and normal oil temps are 215-220 with AC off.

When the bearing was pulled it only just started to wear so I got it just in time.
Far as the rocker goes I think the comp trunion kit I had was just old and failed. They been in the car for 30k+ miles.

With your new bearings, make sure the thrust bearing is being "set" correctly with a plastic hammer after the first pass of main cap bolt tq. These are are steps from the service manual to make sure the thrust bearing halves are aligned:

1. Tighten the M10 bearing cap bolts (1–10) a first pass in sequence to 20 Y (15 lb ft).
2. Note: To properly align the crankshaft thrust bearings, the final thrust of the crankshaft MUST be in the forward direction.
3. Using a plastic-face hammer, tap the crankshaft rearward, then forward in order to align the thrust bearings.

Then after all is built check your crank end play with a dial indicator. Should be around .002-007" Ideally you want a performance engine around .004-.006" Two thou would be kinda tight.

Then after some run time and hard passes, recheck crank end play with dial indicator on the balancer. If it is increasing, you have a problem. I could see gaining .001" end play after break in. But if it went from .005" to .010"+ the thrust bearing is getting tore up. Or if after full driveline assembly, there is now less end play than when the engine was built... problem in the driveline pushing the crank forward.

If half the thrust bearing is wore more than the other half, was not "set" correctly when installed.

I'd still not use 20w50. That is thick stuff, not great for cold starts. Brad Penn makes a 15w40 if you think you need thicker than 10w40. But I don't think you have an oil problem. An oil problem would also show bad wear on the main and rod bearings. If the problem is isolated to only the thrust bearing, it wasn't an oil problem.

[Witt51]

Originally Posted by Russell James

Neither of your failures had anything to do with the oil. Brad Penn is good stuff. I wouldn't go thicker. 10w40 is on the edge of being too thick for street performance. Next change, I'd mix at least half 10w30.

Thrust bearings fail because of a clutch or trans install problem. Something is forcing the crank forward. Often a mismatch of parts... such as wrong pilot bearing or bellhousing dimensions off putting the input shaft too deep in the crank.

When your trans went in, did it slide in easily to butt up against the back of the engine? Or were the bolts used to draw it up that last little bit? When there is a bind, and people use the bolts to air impact it in the last little bit... is when that bind pushes the crank forward and wears out the thrust bearing.

I saw one recently where machine shop, assembly shop, customer all blaming each other for a wiped out thrust bearing and destroyed engine. The real cause was the aftermarket bellhousing was not indexed/centered to the crank centerline. When the engine was installed, and jammed forward with an impact on the bolts... the input shaft was off center to the pilot bearing and jammed some of the pilot needles into the end of crank. End result was zero crank end play wiped out the thrust bearing in a couple hundred miles.

After everything in the driveline is installed, pry the crank forward and back. Still should have crank end play within spec. No crank end play... something is jamming the crank forward. fix before first start or the thrust bearing is doomed.

Trunion wise, use higher quality trunions. Assuming no other problems like coil bind or PTV contact.

Your original plan of BP 10w40 is fine...great stuff. I use Brad Penn 20w50 in a BBC drag car. But, I heat the pan up before the first cold start. Otherwise it is way too thick for a cold start and spikes the oil pressure. That engine has huge clearances. I def would not use that thick in an LS engine.

Damn everytime Russell replies with stuff like this I get scared. I'm just at that point. Just had it rebuilt for 3rd time. I did the long block machine shop did short block. Engine is already installed. About to install my rebuilt clutch and now I'm terrible

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Russell James]

Originally Posted by Witt51

Damn everytime Russell replies with stuff like this I get scared. I'm just at that point. Just had it rebuilt for 3rd time. I did the long block machine shop did short block. Engine is already installed. About to install my rebuilt clutch and now I'm terrible

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Just make sure you have good crank end play...on the engine stand, after driveline install, and then again after some driving. Many check it on the engine stand... but never again. Checking it after clutch and trans install, you'll know right away if something is wrong if you lost all the end play. Same with after driving it some... if that end play is growing like crazy, problem.

Thrust bearings should experience very little wear if everything is installed correctly. In an auto trans car, wiping out the thrust bearing is a common result from too high trans line pressure shoving the torque converter forward. Or a cheap TC can balloon under extreme use. In my BBC drag car I had the trans shop that built my Powerglide do some pump mods that reduced line pressure. That stopped my thrust bearing wear on that car. The shops that build drag racing Powerglides and TH400s know exactly what to do to prevent excessive trans line pressure.

In a manual trans car, just have to be real careful... using the correct pilot bearing, bellhousing is centered to the crank and nothing is forced together. Recheck end play a few times and if it is staying stable, you're golden.