07-31-2021, 11:11 PM | #1 |
Drives: 2017 Chevy Camaro 1SS Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 10
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Adjustable Sway Bar Recommendations?
So, I've been getting into AutoX with my 2017 Camaro SS with no performance modifications done to it. I'm trying to stay in F-Street, which allows for a single aftermarket sway bar (front OR rear). I've been told that to help with the understeer I'd either want a softer front, or more likely, a stiffer rear. Do any of you have recommendations? I know that Phastek has a couple of options for adjustable sway bars. Do any of you have experience and can maybe even tell me what setting to put it at? Thanks!
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08-01-2021, 09:16 AM | #2 |
Drives: 2SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: AK
Posts: 2,301
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Here's the thing about AutoX, if you stiffen the rear, it'll be harder to put down the power in and out of turns. Although stiffer sways can be fun for all around driving and high speed stuff, I'd look at RE71 tires for AutoX long before stiffer sways. It's a lot more about loading the proper end of the car for the location relative to the turn, to carry the speed through. Honestly, stiffer sways can cause you to just skip/skid more in AutoX. This coming from someone that autocrosses with FE4.
Better tires, lighter and smaller wheels, etc. For understeer, I'd change to some wider front tires, because going softer up front would mean worse turn-in and going stiffer in the rear would mean less power put down for all the turns. Don't go nuts, square or slightly narrower than the rear should be fine. Also, get a track alignment.
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2018 2SS 1LE 2023 Colorado ZR2 2022 Stinger GT-line AWD |
08-01-2021, 12:25 PM | #3 | |
SoCal Camaro5 Race Team
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08-01-2021, 08:12 PM | #4 |
1. Alignment (work with what you have)
2. Tires (only thing that touches the ground. Big gains on acceleration, braking, and lateral grip) 3. Brake pads (maximize cold braking for those better tires) |
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08-03-2021, 11:54 AM | #5 |
Drives: 2017 Chevy Camaro 1SS Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 10
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THE QUESTION IS NOT, "Should I do something other than sway bars?"!!!
THEY ARE, "Which sway bar should I buy?" and "Do you have any pertinent information about sway bars that may be helpful based on your experiences using them?" . Look guys...this is not an either-or. The question isn't: "Should I prioritize a sway bar over tires or an alignment?" I will have to do everything that's allowed within the rules if I want to put down the fastest times. I understand that the suspension is an interconnected system, but I'm only allowed one sway bar...that's it. (and shocks, but you can't get aftermarket shocks that use the stock springs for this vehicle from what I've read. Feel free to share if you know something I don't.) I am positive none of the top F-Street Camaros have all stock sway bars. I am looking for recommendations on sway bars. You're making a lot of assumptions...I don't have garbage tires (I already have my next set picked out, they're not RE71Rs, those have been discontinued), I have good breaks, I don't have a stock alignment, I don't consider any of those "performance modifications" if that's what's throwing you off, they're all wear items and none interfere with daily drivability. I'm not allowed to put on wider fronts as per the rules, if I could I would, as that would certainly help a ton. Given how much throttle it takes to break loose the rear as-is (a testament to its understeer tendency), I am not remotely concerned that they'll break loose "too easily". At peak grip every car gets either oversteer or understeer depending on the conditions and setup. I WANT OVERSTEER! Right now the only way to get oversteer is with a ton of throttle at low speeds, I want it to occur with less throttle at low speeds and also actually be possible going more than like 40 mph. |
08-03-2021, 12:30 PM | #6 |
Drives: 2016 1ss camaro Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: 909
Posts: 9,817
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afe power on my car no complaints do about 5-8 track days a year
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08-03-2021, 01:17 PM | #7 | |
SoCal Camaro5 Race Team
Drives: 2021 Shadow Grey Camaro 2SS 1LE Join Date: Mar 2010
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08-06-2021, 05:06 PM | #8 |
Drives: 2SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: AK
Posts: 2,301
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Every time I'm oversteering, I'm wasting time around a corner. It looks and feels cool, but I should be slower and tighter, as oversteering is taking me on a larger radius turn.
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Everything happens for a reason, except when it doesn't, but even then, you can, in hindsight, fabricate a reason that satisfies your belief system.
2018 2SS 1LE 2023 Colorado ZR2 2022 Stinger GT-line AWD |
08-06-2021, 07:46 PM | #9 |
SoCal Camaro5 Race Team
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Allegedly a touch of oversteer in autocross is best. Where rear snaps right back if it does anything at all. You just can’t drive crazy or overdrive. Easy gas and steering. Some do best that way, others like some understeer. I prefer just a bit of understeer I can control with gas. My car with square 305’s and hotchkiss front bar soft is about like stock setup in feel. It’s just that darn EDiff induced rear step out on exit that messes it up
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08-06-2021, 11:43 PM | #10 |
Drives: Chevrolet SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 1,446
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Wow, there's some whacky advice and "facts" being given out in this thread so far! I think some people here aren't quite sure how suspension dynamics actually work. Let's hit "reset" and start over with answering your question.
Truly, oversteer is not what you're looking for because it's really slow. However, most people really don't mean they want the rear end to actually lose grip first in a turn, and I suspect you don't either. If you need to cancel out understeer in your car (i.e. get closer to neutral), a stiffer rear swaybar will accomplish that. But you don't want to go too far or the car will get slow and difficult to drive near the limit - not good. The others aren't wrong when they say that too much rear roll stiffness (be it from swaybar or springs) kills your ability to put down power). You definitely should not try a softer front bar! That's ridiculous for several reasons, but mainly you need to limit your car's roll* during cornering as much as possible, so a softer front bar is the wrong way to go. But here are some suggestions for increasing your rear roll stiffness, including the adjustable bars you actually asked about (be patient and we'll get there!):
The very first thing you should do is make sure you've maxed out front and rear camber and that you're running zero toe at both ends. It sounds like you've thought of that already though. Also, I'm hoping you have a bought a set of 19" wheels and Falken RT660 tires in 245/35/19 front and 265/35/19 rear (possibly the 275/30/19 is worth trying on the back in this situation). Those are easily the fastest tires legal for Street classes that won't be destroyed on your car in a few runs. Don't waste a bunch of money on the lightest, fanciest forged wheels: a $1400 set of MRRs, Apexes, or Forgestars will do just fine. Finally...I hadn't even considered that good performance struts and shocks may not exist for a Street class Camaro! Unless you have Magride on your SS, that's...a really serious problem. Other than tires, shocks are probably the biggest improvement you can make. And if you experiment with bigger rear swaybars, adjustable shocks will be really important to help keep the car stable in offsets and slaloms (more front damping stiffness). For that matter, you could keep your current rear bar and just try stiffer rear damping rates to dial out understeer on corner entry. In the rear, I don't know why you couldn't run the shocks from a coilover kit and just omit the spring and perch while retaining the stock spring. That's legal. For the front, I don't know of a strut that allows the use of the stock spring and perch. But I know one thing: I'd get on the phone with Vorshlag and Strano and I would beg, borrow, or steal a way to get good adjustable damping on both ends of the car if I were you! If there's no way to run anything better than your stock dampers, you're ****ed. Pure and simple. There has to be an option or two out there. Find out what nationally competitive FS Camaro guys are/were running for dampers. Which brings us to the bad news. I don't know any other way to break this to you other than to be brutally honest: the non-1LE SS Camaro is hopelessly outgunned in F Street. Currently, the E90 M3 is way faster and nobody good will compete in anything else at the national level. That's why the class is dying. Same goes for the Mustang GT, btw. And next year, things may get worse because SCCA may move the 1LE and GT350/PP2/Mach1 into F Street to save the class. No matter what you do to the car within class rules, you're always going to be at a major disadvantage to several other cars in class. If I were in your shoes, I'd bail on F Street and move to CAM-C, where you could run way wider wheels/tires, aftermarket coilovers with any spring rates you want and any swaybars you want, along with camber plates and (maybe) an aftermarket diff. A local friend has done just that with his 2017 (minus the coilovers - he has the Magride shocks) and I co-drove it with him for one local event. I believe it is a bit faster than my B Street 1LE. I know this isn't what you asked about, but it's important to ask oneself whether it makes sense to throw money and time at a non-1LE SS for F Street at this point. Maybe you've thought this all through and have your reasons, which is of course fine. I'd just be remiss if I didn't make sure you have this perspective. *Roll doesn't cause weight transfer, and weight transfer is bad for grip anyway; so please try to forget the stuff written above about roll being good!
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2020 SS 1LE |
08-07-2021, 09:19 AM | #11 | |
SoCal Camaro5 Race Team
Drives: 2021 Shadow Grey Camaro 2SS 1LE Join Date: Mar 2010
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But it’s academic. The OP didn’t appreciate any input we gave and made up his mind on what he wants already. He just wanted us to tell him what bar to get for his stock car, though later he told us it wasn’t really stock. |
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08-07-2021, 10:39 AM | #12 | |||||||||
Drives: Chevrolet SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 1,446
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Well, I was trying to avoid calling anyone out in particular. But since you asked...
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Matt Miller
2020 SS 1LE |
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08-07-2021, 01:16 PM | #13 | |
SoCal Camaro5 Race Team
Drives: 2021 Shadow Grey Camaro 2SS 1LE Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SO CAL
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Anyway, we can go on and on as there is a lot to the “black art” of handling |
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08-07-2021, 01:36 PM | #14 | |||||
Drives: Chevrolet SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 1,446
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Matt Miller
2020 SS 1LE |
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