[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by bigd1276

Would love to see the income level that feeds these graphs.

Not sure which income levels you are talking about. The income level of the people producing the charts or the income levels of the people buying the EVs?

The second part was not part of the data but it probably exists somewhere. What I can say is, if the issue is affordability of EVs vs ICE vehicles, here’s what I found when I recently bought a Model Y.

Price of Model Y: $52k (MSRP of my Camaro when I bought it in 2017 - $55.2k, similarly equipped today would be $60,485)
Prices of similarly equipped ICE vehicles that I might have considered buying instead of the Model Y:

• Buick Envision about $44k
• Buick Enclave about $54k
• Chevrolet Blazer RS about $48k
• Chevrolet Traverse about $51k
• Chevrolet Tahoe about $70k

I feel like I made a good choice. If the thought is that EVs are unaffordable, then Buick Enclave, Chevy Traverse and Tahoe are also unaffordable. Yet they all sell very well.

[bigd1276]

Purchasing. I’m guessing upper % of the tax bracket.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by bigd1276

Purchasing. I’m guessing upper % of the tax bracket.

That would have been true a few years ago when EVs tended to be luxury models fully optioned. Less now that there are many more mainstream models, with a lot more mainstream models coming in 2024-25 and availability in multiple trim levels.

Tesla Model Y starts at $39k for a single motor RWD model.

The volume weighted average price of new vehicles sold in the US in 2023 is about $48k. So from an accessibility standpoint the Model Y is accessible, maybe more accessible than the average new car sold in the US. And it qualifies for $7,500 in incentives for people who are not in the upper % of tax brackets.

The Model Y also happens to be the 4th best selling vehicle in the US and best selling in the world. Model 3 (priced lower than Model Y) is # 10 in the US.

[docwra]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Why do you say that? As you plan your answer know that I will come back with a ton of data showing the opposite.

@admin can you sticky this data?
Theres a cyclical thing going on here where posters seem to accept that EV sales and takeup are increasing and then a New Player gets involved and the same arguments get parrotted again.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

And even then, the Tesla can charge from 20% to 80% charge in roughly a half hour.

Supercharging is the answer! ...well, in moderation, with the tacit acceptance that you're slowly damaging your car.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookec...h=3480fdda473c

[olrocker]

Everyone raving about Tesla brings me back to something Bob Lutz once said:

"Tesla knows how to make ELECTRIC cars. GM, Ford, Chrysler, and all the European and Japanese companies all know how to make CARS."

They've all been doing it for 75+ years, so they have the basics of mass production of a complicated product down to a science. They have tight collaboration with suppliers. They have the timing for supply delivery down to the second. They have efficiencies on a scale Tesla and Elon Musk have yet to incorporate into their operational structure.

It is inevitable that one of the big car companies will eventually either purchase Tesla, or that Tesla will go out of business and their proprietary intellectual property will be plucked off the carcass by one or more of the established automakers

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by olrocker

Everyone raving about Tesla brings me back to something Bob Lutz once said:

"Tesla knows how to make ELECTRIC cars. GM, Ford, Chrysler, and all the European and Japanese companies all know how to make CARS."

What's the ROI on $40,000 worth of gas savings?

https://jalopnik.com/if-you-bought-a...uch-1851011677

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Supercharging is the answer! ...well, in moderation, with the tacit acceptance that you're slowly damaging your car.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookec...h=3480fdda473c

Quoted from the article you linked…” The upshot of the study is that “occasional fast charging is fine.”

For people who charge their vehicles at home, fast charging will only be occasional.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by olrocker

Everyone raving about Tesla brings me back to something Bob Lutz once said:

"Tesla knows how to make ELECTRIC cars. GM, Ford, Chrysler, and all the European and Japanese companies all know how to make CARS."

They've all been doing it for 75+ years, so they have the basics of mass production of a complicated product down to a science. They have tight collaboration with suppliers. They have the timing for supply delivery down to the second. They have efficiencies on a scale Tesla and Elon Musk have yet to incorporate into their operational structure.

It is inevitable that one of the big car companies will eventually either purchase Tesla, or that Tesla will go out of business and their proprietary intellectual property will be plucked off the carcass by one or more of the established automakers

GM’s market cap (value of stock x number of outstanding shares) is $37B.
Ford’s market cap is $39B
Stellantis’ market cap is $58B.


Tesla’s market cap is $635B. So who’s likely to buy whom?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

What's the ROI on $40,000 worth of gas savings?

https://jalopnik.com/if-you-bought-a...uch-1851011677

Remember when the refrain was “Tesla loses <fill in the blanks> thousand dollars on every EV they sell. The only thing keeping them afloat is all the credit money they get from the other automakers”?

Now you can replace that with “Tesla makes so much money on every car they sell that they can afford to drop the prize on their top models by $40,000 and still make a profit on every one of them.” Sounds like they learned how to build cars at a really efficient scale, reducing their costs to the point that they can price them as aggressively as they choose to. The fact that they made such rapid price reductions sucks for the buyers who bought just before the reductions.

Last week I bought a Tesla Model Y Long Range with options for $52k. Last year a similar spec vehicle cost those buyers $68,000. Sucks for them, rocks for me. If they drop it another $5k in the near future I’d have no issue with it. When I bought it it was worth (to me) more than what I paid for it. If they raise the prices in the near future I’ll be relieved that I got in when I did.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Remember when the refrain was “Tesla loses <fill in the blanks> thousand dollars on every EV they sell. The only thing keeping them afloat is all the credit money they get fro the other automakers”?

Now you can replace that with “Tesla makes so much money one every car they sell that they can afford to drop the prize on their top models by $40,000 and still make a profit on every one of them.” The fact that they made such rapid price reductions sucks fo true buyers who bought just before the reductions.

Last week I bought a Tesla Model Y Long Range with options for $52k. Last year a similar spec vehicle cost those buyers $68,000. Sucks for them, rocks for me. If they drop it another $5k in the near future I’d have no issue with it. When I bought it it was worth (to me) more than what I paid for it. If they raise the prices in the near future I’ll be relieved that I got in when I did.

You've made an excellent point which speaks to "affordability". Rather than always comparing EVs to the price of ICE vehicles to make an affordability argument, the car buying public knows that EVs should be dramatically less expensive than what they are now.

Tesla lowering their price speaks volumes as to the over priced EVs currently for sale. No matter if EVs match or beat ICE cars in the low price range, the truth is they should be much, much lower even still and thus more "affordable".

[Martinjlm]

'

Originally Posted by 90503

You've made an excellent point which speaks to "affordability". Rather than always comparing EVs to the price of ICE vehicles to make an affordability argument, the car buying public knows that EVs should be dramatically less expensive than what they are now.

Tesla lowering their price speaks volumes as to the over priced EVs currently for sale. No matter if EVs match or beat ICE cars in the low price range, the truth is they should be much, much lower even still and thus more "affordable".

I get your point but I have to disagree with it. Price and cost should not be considered interchangeably. Because Tesla has been able to dramatically reduce the cost of their vehicles doesn’t mean that the price has to change. Price is a function of value to consumer. Cost is a function of material and intellectual property input. The cost of a 2-liter soda is pennies. But the price depends on when and where you buy it and what the utility is for the buyer. As long as the price is not below the cost, the company providing it is in a good place. The fact that Tesla has been able to reduce their costs at the volumes they produce doesn’t mean that all EV makers can produce at the same levels of cost. So the price for any EV has to be based on the value the buyer places on it, not what it costs the EV maker to produce it. It is the EV maker’s burden to plan well for getting to a cost structure that places their product’s cost below what a mature market is willing to pay for their vehicle.

[MyNameIs]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

'

I get your point but I have to disagree with it. Price and cost should not be considered interchangeably. Because Tesla has been able to dramatically reduce the cost of their vehicles doesn’t mean that the price has to change. Price is a function of value to consumer. Cost is a function of material and intellectual property input. The cost of a 2-liter soda is pennies. But the price depends on when and where you buy it and what the utility is for the buyer. As long as the price is not below the cost, the company providing it is in a good place. The fact that Tesla has been able to reduce their costs at the volumes they produce doesn’t mean that all EV makers can produce at the same levels of cost. So the price for any EV has to be based on the value the buyer places on it, not what it costs the EV maker to produce it. It is the EV maker’s burden to plan well for getting to a cost structure that places their product’s cost below what a mature market is willing to pay for their vehicle.

Obviously you are being paid dude. You are in the industry and are the last person I would trust. You be the guinea pig. You let those toxic fumes leaching from the battery infiltrate you and your family and get back to us in 5 or 10 years and let us know how it worked out. So much wrong with mass EVS it lacks common sense.

[MyNameIs]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Now let’s handle this part.

What do I (and most EV drivers) do while their cars are charging? Eat dinner. Watch TV. Sleep. Whatever people do when they are in for the night. Because most of the charging is done at home. I’ve had a Level 2 charger in my garage since we got our first Chevy Volt in 2012. For that car and the next Chevy Volt we got in 2016 we almost N-E-V-E-R charged anywhere but home. When we did, it was because there just happened to be a charger wherever we happened to be. We plugged in because we could not because we had to. For people who are able to charge at home it is very unlikely that they would need to access public charging unless they are driving more than the range of their vehicle in a single day. When we had a Volt, that was roughly 50 miles a day. Then the car would shift to gas. That didn’t happen much. For the Tesla we have now that would be over 300 miles, so only an issue on long trips.

And even then, the Tesla can charge from 20% to 80% charge in roughly a half hour. If we wanted to we could watch Netflix or any other streaming on the car’s screen for that half hour or so. Some people chose to play video games on it. Wouldn’t be my choice, but you did ask what people do.

Yeh...who wants to spend over 1 hour at McDonalds eating dinner while your car is charging when you have to be someplace? Watch TV?...How many TVs have you seen at a charging station? How many have charging stations in their driveways? in their apt complexes? The new scam happening now is peeps are disconnecting the charge from unattended vehicles and plugging them in their cars. Watch netflix on your cars screen while your car charges? You gots to be joking!...Why not just have a picnic too?...in 20 deg weather. Your arguments are so weak. While you are sitting around charging your clown car I have already reached my destination and have returned back home eating a steak dinner not a Big Mac.