[ego74]

Hey folks,
Now that I've had my 2019 ZL1 A10 for a couple of months, I thought I'd share my thoughts on a comparison between it and my 2017 M4 6MT Competition Package... I'll try to break my thoughts up into different categories

Exterior Appearance
They are both beautiful cars, but in very different ways. The ZL1 has a super strong and aggressive exterior while the M4 is more subdued but still agressive - especially its stance. Both attract attention, but the M4 gets noticeably more. Upon closer examination, you start to see the reason the M4 is significantly more expensive. The paint on the ZL1 is not in the same league as the M4 - it feels much thinner (haven't actually measured) and I highly recommend all GM car owners to put some sort of protection on their paint.

Sound
This one isn't even a contest. The sound of the stock M4 exhaust, even with the Comp Package is garbage. However, with a good exhaust (I highly recommend AWE), the M4 can sound worlds better. But again, even with the AWE exhaust, my M4 can't hold a candle to the rumble of the ZL1 - especially with the Borla exhaust. The ZL1's cold startup is otherworldly.

Performance - Acceleration
Again, not much of a contest - the A10 ZL1 blows the 6MT M4 away in a straight line. But the ZL1 feels much more raw and keeps you on your toes. The M4's Achilles heel is its inability to get traction. The next-gen, AWD M4 is going to be a beast.

Performance - Handling
This one is tricky... I know the Camaro, on paper, is a great handling car - but the M4 just feels so much more planted. And the steering feel of the M4 is 10x better. The M4 feels lighter and more nimble. Again, I know it's not all that different on the track, but the feel on the road (at least to me) is very different.

Drive-ability
I find the M4 to be much easier to drive. I am one of those people that feel the Camaro's visibility is not that bad - but when you get out of it and get right into an M4, you feel like your standing on top of a mountain with nothing in your way! One other thing to note, the brakes on the M4 are also much, much better feeling. This surprised me as the brembos on the ZL1 are no joke!

Features
This is where the ZL1 crushes it. There's almost no difference in niceties between the two cars, yet there's a massive price difference. Keep in mind, a fully loaded M4 comp goes way into the 80s.

Interior Appearance
This one is no contest... The ZL1's interior, while very feature rich, isn't winning any beauty contests. On the other hand, the M4's interior is so functional and purpose built with that top-shelf, German quality. The M4's interior is a very, very nice place to be. Can someone please tell GM to do a better job with that steering wheel? It's god awful.

Overall
I was surprised by how different these cars are. The Camaro is very comfortable, while the M4 is a bit more harsh. The Comp Package seats are very tight and hard, and the ride of the M4 is more harsh - even on the suspension's softest setting - forget about the track setting - OUCH! Bang-for-the-buck, it's the ZL1, hands-down. But once you get behind the wheel of the M4, the price difference becomes very justifiable.

Hope that helps for anyone cross-shopping the two.

[NeverDie]

I stopped reading when you said the steering feel of the M4 was better.

That is flat-out wrong. The F8x chassis EPAS HAS NO FEEL. The Camaro actually does provide feedback. The only thing the BMW does is add artificial weight and have a way-too-thick rim on the wheel. There is no feedback, aka actual feel, to speak of from those cars.

Even the Gxx chassis won't fix it. The Camaro is almost universally praised for being one of the best feeling EPAS systems out there.

Insanity.

[URBAN LEGEND]

Originally Posted by NeverDie

I stopped reading when you said the steering feel of the M4 was better.

That is flat-out wrong. The F8x chassis EPAS HAS NO FEEL. The Camaro actually does provide feedback. The only thing the BMW does is add artificial weight and have a way-too-thick rim on the wheel. There is no feedback, aka actual feel, to speak of from those cars.

Even the Gxx chassis won't fix it. The Camaro is almost universally praised for being one of the best feeling EPAS systems out there.

Insanity.

You own any of these cars? I have an 18 M3 CP and 2 ZL1 1LEs. Steering feel is not an issue for me on any of them. All 3 get equal driving.

[ego74]

Originally Posted by NeverDie

I stopped reading when you said the steering feel of the M4 was better.

My apologies for wasting your time.

Originally Posted by NeverDie

That is flat-out wrong. The F8x chassis EPAS HAS NO FEEL. The Camaro actually does provide feedback. The only thing the BMW does is add artificial weight and have a way-too-thick rim on the wheel. There is no feedback, aka actual feel, to speak of from those cars.

I say tomAto, you say tomAHto.

Originally Posted by NeverDie

Even the Gxx chassis won't fix it.

You have quite an insight into BMW's future engineering efforts.

Originally Posted by NeverDie

Insanity.

Couldn't agree more. Lesson learned.

[minn19]

I've had multiple versions of the M3/4 (Civic, ZCP) and most recently just got out of a M4 CS. Granted I have a ZLE, but I would disagree with nearly everything you said except about the interior. Even the M3/4s have plenty of plastic etc in the "top shelf german quality." Also plenty of rattles, cracks, pops and especially the common door seal squeak on the M3s. If you want top shelf interior go MB or Porsche and pay the $$$.

The CS was the best steering of the bunch and that finally completely got rid of the dead spot on center feel (the ZCP almost did), but I don't get the 10X better comment. Nor the handling comment. Again I have a 1LE, but I test drove the regular ZL1s and they felt like they were more planted than even my CS at speed etc.

The brakes is where I 100% disagree with you. Unless you had CCBs there is no contest between the steel brake setups in either feel or stopping power. Maybe you prefer a softer pedal I dunno? I certainly don't and everyone of my M3/4s had a soft pedal and most recently at a track day with my CS they faded badly 10 minutes into a session.

Agreed about seat comfort, the Camaro seats are much more comfy, but last I definitely disagree with the M4 worth the money comment over the Camaro. Unless you got a steal like I did on my CS and ZCP. The market has spoken and the M3/4 ZCPs and especially the CSs can be had for huge discounts. There is much more substance in the SS, 1LE/ZL1 Camaros (at least for what I care about) than there is in the current M3/4s.

It sounds like I'm bashing on the M3/4 and I am not as they are awesome/supremely capable cars. Even in the acceleration contest, I think if one raced a DCT CS they'd be surprised how close it would hang with a ZL1. But, every single one including the CS left me disappointed and wanting more. Had my GT350(s) not been giant pieces of shit/headaches, I would've never went back to the F8X platform. I'm obviously hoping my ZLE isn't as I love this car for what it is and I'm not sure what I would try next.

To each his own as these are emotional purchases and everyone has different like/dislikes or what they find important in their cars.

[ego74]

Originally Posted by minn19

To each his own as these are emotional purchases and everyone has different like/dislikes or what they find important in their cars.

Couldn't agree more! Thank you for your take on the difference. One thing I should add, I don't track my cars - so I can't speak to differences you would find there. Thanks again for your insight from that perspective.

Unfortunately, I bought my M4 back when the demand was much higher than it is today. You're right, you can definitely get great deals on M4's and M4 ZCP's. I've never seen a good deal on a CS, but that may be due to the fact that we live in very different parts of the country.

Again - thanks for contributing. I always enjoy seeing the other side of the coin.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ego74

Couldn't agree more! Thank you for your take on the difference. One thing I should add, I don't track my cars - so I can't speak to differences you would find there. Thanks again for your insight from that perspective.

Unfortunately, I bought my M4 back when the demand was much higher than it is today. You're right, you can definitely get great deals on M4's and M4 ZCP's. I've never seen a good deal on a CS, but that may be due to the fact that we live in very different parts of the country.

Again - thanks for contributing. I always enjoy seeing the other side of the coin.

No problem, they are just cars and people get to fired about what they like/dislike etc.

My 6MT ZCP M3, (which I regret trading in on the M4 CS) was 91k MSRP and I got it for around 78k plus a free set of winter wheels so roughly 16k off all in. Then to move the M4 CS they gave me almost 26k off of a 104,500 MSRP. I liked that car, but (even most of the BMW guys on the forum) agree it isn't a six figure car. I should of negotiated harder on my ZLE as I only got $3500 off of that. But, at 69k it still has way more of the kind of substance/performance than my previous two M3/4s. Obviously M3s are out of production and according to spy shots the buck tooth grilled next gen M3/4 are coming next year.

Also if one likes MTs the six speed in the Camaro has a much better feel to it and it allows you to turn on off rev match whenever you want. In the M3/4 they have it on always in comfort/sport and turn it off in sport +. I always thought it was a mistake for BMW to not allow you to choose when you wanted it in whatever mode. iDrive has so many other choices it could've been easily done in there, but nope.

I do like BMWs DCTs over the A10s I've driven though if one wants a auto. But, both are amazing pieces of tech and are just different in feel etc.

I find BMW like Apple. They build beautiful/amazing products, but only want you to use them as they specify. Where as GM and even Ford to an extent are more open source and give you more choices how to use the product. This is coming from a person that generally dislikes GM very much, but I had to admit they hit it out of the park with the Camaro variants. Like I said, if it holds together decently well I will be a true convert.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

I have yet to drive a zl1 1le but I can't imagine the steering feel is much different than the ss 1le save for a few extra pounds. I've only ever driven an M4 competition, and the steering wasn't as communicative as the 1le in my opinion, but that's just my take. Both badass cars.

[URBAN LEGEND]

Originally Posted by minn19

No problem, they are just cars and people get to fired about what they like/dislike etc.

My 6MT ZCP M3, (which I regret trading in on the M4 CS) was 91k MSRP and I got it for around 78k plus a free set of winter wheels so roughly 16k off all in. Then to move the M4 CS they gave me almost 26k off of a 104,500 MSRP. I liked that car, but (even most of the BMW guys on the forum) agree it isn't a six figure car. I should of negotiated harder on my ZLE as I only got $3500 off of that. But, at 69k it still has way more of the kind of substance/performance than my previous two M3/4s. Obviously M3s are out of production and according to spy shots the buck tooth grilled next gen M3/4 are coming next year.

Also if one likes MTs the six speed in the Camaro has a much better feel to it and it allows you to turn on off rev match whenever you want. In the M3/4 they have it on always in comfort/sport and turn it off in sport +. I always thought it was a mistake for BMW to not allow you to choose when you wanted it in whatever mode. iDrive has so many other choices it could've been easily done in there, but nope.

I do like BMWs DCTs over the A10s I've driven though if one wants a auto. But, both are amazing pieces of tech and are just different in feel etc.

I find BMW like Apple. They build beautiful/amazing products, but only want you to use them as they specify. Where as GM and even Ford to an extent are more open source and give you more choices how to use the product. This is coming from a person that generally dislikes GM very much, but I had to admit they hit it out of the park with the Camaro variants. Like I said, if it holds together decently well I will be a true convert.

The CS price was wrong all day and twice on Sunday. I’m not sure what were they thinking there.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I have yet to drive a zl1 1le but I can't imagine the steering feel is much different than the ss 1le save for a few extra pounds. I've only ever driven an M4 competition, and the steering wasn't as communicative as the 1le in my opinion, but that's just my take. Both badass cars.

These things are so subjective/personal I don't even bother listening to reviews on the subject anymore. I had a GT350, which most reviews said was "telepathic" it was so good and while it was, I prefer the ZLEs to that so far.

I agree about the comp pack vs ZL1 comment, but the CS is noticeably the best of the bunch and more on par with the ZL1s for me/IMO. I haven't gotten my ZLE to the track yet so that will be the true test for me.

Originally Posted by URBAN LEGEND

The CS price was wrong all day and twice on Sunday. I’m not sure what were they thinking there.

Agreed, especially loaded with CCBs they get into the 120s, which is insane. For that kind of money I'm going all in on a manual Porsche 911 GTS.

[ego74]

Originally Posted by minn19

My 6MT ZCP M3, (which I regret trading in on the M4 CS) was 91k MSRP and I got it for around 78k plus a free set of winter wheels so roughly 16k off all in. Then to move the M4 CS they gave me almost 26k off of a 104,500 MSRP.

Wow! You won't get anywhere near those discounts near me. Maybe right now because the M4 is at the end of the road, but still not on a CS.

Originally Posted by minn19

In the M3/4 they have it on always in comfort/sport and turn it off in sport +. I always thought it was a mistake for BMW to not allow you to choose when you wanted it in whatever mode. iDrive has so many other choices it could've been easily done in there, but nope.

Spot on! I've always wondered the same.

Originally Posted by minn19

I find BMW like Apple. They build beautiful/amazing products, but only want you to use them as they specify. Where as GM and even Ford to an extent are more open source and give you more choices how to use the product. This is coming from a person that generally dislikes GM very much, but I had to admit they hit it out of the park with the Camaro variants. Like I said, if it holds together decently well I will be a true convert.

Really great point!

[GuywithL86]

Lol at an $100k m4

Buddy just bought an m4 gts for like $80k with 2k miles on it

[Baldilocks01SS]

If you're serious about a BMW M car, the M2 Competition is the only way to go. Easily tunable to over 500 RWHP and more fun than the M4.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

If you're serious about a BMW M car, the M2 Competition is the only way to go. Easily tunable to over 500 RWHP and more fun than the M4.

^This or wait (especially if you are a MT fan) for the release of the M2CS.