[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Yes, but keep in mind, the Corvette is Chevy's halo car, the Camaro is a parts bin car. There was just an article saying that Chevy needs to charge an average of $80k to make the Corvette break even. So, they are already losing a bunch of money of lower trims of the new 'vette.

If Chevy decided to do an LT5 ZL1 and lose money, it would be with the hopes that the excitement would drive more sales of the lower trims. But, as I stated before, pony/muscle car sales are in steady decline. I don't know if there is a business case for this, unless the LT5 ZL1 made a profit.

I would think any new form of the 6Gen Camaro would probably have to come with a another refresh to help increase sales. But, since there seems to be no activity with Camaro development at this time, this seems very unlikely.

Dodge has shown this to work. Market your Demon, Hellkitty, etc with all the biggest HP, flamboyant colors, etc...then take more market share and sales.

Why on Earth GM can't see the forest for the trees in the pony car wars with this marketing is beyond me. It's in plain sight.

LT2 and DOHC V8 will NOT ever go in a 6th gen. What GM can do easiest, is send the 6th gen out with a bang and throw the LT5 in to compete with the GT500 and Redeye.

Yes the GT500 is faster in a straight line than any ZL1. The CFTP still has to prove faster around a course, but who cares...give the Camaro some equal power to it's rivals, or watch it die entirely.

The public response to Dodge's HP marketing shows the LT5 Camaro will generate lower model sales. Stop dicking around GM and give the pony car public what they want from the Camaro, top-class competing power. Then watch the Alpha chassis re-assert dominance in handling since we already know it's the best of the 3.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

By the time the 13/14 GT500 came out, Chevy was introducing the 14/15 Z/28, had the 2015 LT4 powered Z06 in the que and was already designing the 17 ZL1 ...with the same LT4 engine!

It’s obvious why Chevy didn’t go back and refresh the Zeta Camaro. They introduced the C7 Corvette in 14 and the Aplha Camaro in 16.
.

The difference is the 13 GT500 showed up at the same time or a month or so after the 12 ZL1. The ZL1 had the 12,13,14 and 15 Model years unchanged and GM had the LS9 sitting there if they wanted to. That is 3 model years of the ZL1 where it went direct head to head with the 5.8 GT500 (bc ford pushed up model year 13).

Originally Posted by hotlap

“Riddle me this:”
The GT500 didn’t exist for 15-16-17-18-19. The ZL1 was absent in 16. Did Ford not care?

The GT350R was design to battle the 14/15 Z/28 and has been in production for 15-16-17-18-19-20 without a power increase. For a $65k base price car ...it’s not very fast. Does Ford not care?

To point #1 you can follow the tea leaves/rumors and see they were developing the GT500. If the rumors are true it looks like the GT500 was supposed to show up in 2018 but switching to the DCT really delayed things. GT350 and R were unchanged in 2018 - when all other mustangs got heavy refreshes, this leads me to believe that 18 was simply a carryover because the GT500 was not ready yet. Model year 2019 GT500 is still delayed - so 19 GT350 gets updates to tires, magneride, etc to improve its performance. 2020 model year, GT500 is finally ready, and 2020 GT350R gets updates and and some trickle down from the 500. It's not that they didn't care, they just couldn't get out of their own way and when they switched to the DCT it really set them back.

To point#2. Ford hasn't sat idle. 17, all cars got proper cooling(as should have been from start) 18 was unchanged, 19 Base 350 gets updated tires, magneride tuning aero bits and 20 350R gets similar updates as 19 350 does. Yes they didn't up the power but unlike GM they don't have an engine sitting there ready to go ala LT5. That is what makes it frustrating to me is they have the resources, they have a powerplant that has no home and if they did would make a vehicle that would just decimate everything. And it looks like for two generations in a row they are going to just sit there and go meh.

Originally Posted by hotlap

The original thinking was that Aplha2 gen7 would debut in 2021. Now, gen6 has been extended through 2023 as they reevaluate what to do altogether. Including the platform and electric power.

So what engines were they planning for the Alpha2 Camaro? As GM developed the LT2 for the C8, did they also develop a LT2 variant for gen7 Camaro? Is there a LT5 variant? ...or a 5.5 FPC variant?

I’d guess that engines were developed and they won’t be used unless they put them into the now extended gen6 Camaro. It makes sense to do it to remain relevant but...

Not meaning this to sound salty but ...I wouldn’t blame GM to say screw it after the 2019 refresh shit show and declining sales.

Which to me is all the more reason they should do it. To just soldier on with an unchanged LT1 and LT4 since 2016 and 2017 all the way through 2023 to me seems crazy when the competition is continually updating/tweaking. Again, if they didn't have choices sitting there it would be more understandable but the fact they have stuff they can use and aren't using is what makes it frustrating.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Yes, but keep in mind, the Corvette is Chevy's halo car, the Camaro is a parts bin car. There was just an article saying that Chevy needs to charge an average of $80k to make the Corvette break even. So, they are already losing a bunch of money of lower trims of the new 'vette.

If Chevy decided to do an LT5 ZL1 and lose money, it would be with the hopes that the excitement would drive more sales of the lower trims. But, as I stated before, pony/muscle car sales are in steady decline. I don't know if there is a business case for this, unless the LT5 ZL1 made a profit.

I would think any new form of the 6Gen Camaro would probably have to come with a another refresh to help increase sales. But, since there seems to be no activity with Camaro development at this time, this seems very unlikely.

As much as GM loves to share everything, that makes even more of a case IMO to use the LT2 and LT5. The LS9 was at least in a car that lasted from 2009 to 2013. The LT5 was in a car for 1 model year. I am kind of shocked GM did that, it would make perfect sense to stuff it in the ZL1 and recoup some of that development cost.

As Blaq and a few others like to say GM does it right the first time and that is why they don't need to make updates tweaks like Ford and Dodge do. But now with the generation extended are they really going to just sit there and say well this is just good enough??

[Lafourche1]

Originally Posted by shaffe

To point#2. Ford hasn't sat idle. 17, all cars got proper cooling(as should have been from start) 18 was unchanged, 19 Base 350 gets updated tires, magneride tuning aero bits and 20 350R gets similar updates as 19 350 does. Yes they didn't up the power but unlike GM they don't have an engine sitting there ready to go ala LT5. That is what makes it frustrating to me is they have the resources, they have a powerplant that has no home and if they did would make a vehicle that would just decimate everything. And it looks like for two generations in a row they are going to just sit there and go meh.

Since they have all gotten the proper cooling, which models are actually warrantied for track use?

All 1LE variants, along with all SS variants and all ZL1 variants are warranty covered for track use, as long as they are left stock.

[DaveC113]

LT2 and LT5 could easily go in a Camaro. LT2 could probably use the exact same intake and exhaust as the LT1, it's not that different. LT5 could go right into a ZL1.

If GM doesn't do that, they are crazy.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

Since they have all gotten the proper cooling, which models are actually warrantied for track use?

All 1LE variants, along with all SS variants and all ZL1 variants are warranty covered for track use, as long as they are left stock.

Ford is not as open about it as GM is. GM has the major advantage there.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

If the 5.5 dohc engine is as big as a 5.0 coyote it's going to be a tight fit in the camaro engine bay. Doubt that happens for multiple reasons.

I may be in the minority, but I don't like constant updates that make your car obsolete in a year or 2 after purchase. Make it right from the get go, and leave it alone for a while.

Make a different higher performance trim/model it you must.

[Silveradoss573]

Originally Posted by GuywithL86

https://youtu.be/JUmWUedM92o

Dyno = 700whp

Looks legit to me from what he did at the track and there's more e.t left in the car I feel after watching his passes. I wouldn't be shocked to see it run low 10's. A 9 second pass is guaranteed with just a few minor tweaks...fact!

[gameovergt]

I've never understood GM's marketing for the Camaro. The Transformers edition & reintroduction caused strong sales but then Dodge/Ford said hold my beer & left Chevy in the dust. I was out of the car world for a few years after trading in my 2010 1SS Camaro & getting married. Then right before retiring from Navy said I want a new Camaro after reading the MT reviews. Unfortunately I couldn't get anything less than $43,000 in the Bloomington, IN area. So I got my 2016 GT with 61 miles on it(original owner special ordered it & an ecoboost) pretitled for a little over $30,000 after trading in my F150. I couldn't pass that up with the options/black accent package.
I can afford a more equipped car but the wifey says no. She is from Michigan, grew up outside Dearborn(Novi, Highland, Milford, Brighton area). Her dad jus retired as robot engineer/tooling from FCA, numerous family retired from GM or Ford. She thinks $ is wasted on modding cars, wants me to get a Honda. Ugg! Rant over. I am considering trading in for a ZL1 but the prices haven't dropped in the Jacksonville, FL area. Maybe soon. I'm not paying over $60,000 for any car. Really would like a GT350 also but those are priced above ZL1's in Florida for the most part.

[metros11]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

LT2 and LT5 could easily go in a Camaro. LT2 could probably use the exact same intake and exhaust as the LT1, it's not that different. LT5 could go right into a ZL1.

If GM doesn't do that, they are crazy.

Actually according to a recent article I read, the LT2 is a completely different motor. The bottom end might be the same, but everything else is new. My understanding is that they built the motor specifically for the mid-engine Corvette, which allows more space, it is therefore much taller than the LT1. Doubtful it would be an easy drop into the Camaro without a lot of reworking.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by metros11

Actually according to a recent article I read, the LT2 is a completely different motor. The bottom end might be the same, but everything else is new. My understanding is that they built the motor specifically for the mid-engine Corvette, which allows more space, it is therefore much taller than the LT1. Doubtful it would be an easy drop into the Camaro without a lot of reworking.

There reallly isn't that much difference between the LT2 and LT1. Same block, same forged pistons and rods. The differences are the unique dry sump, exhaust and intake manifolds, camshaft profile, and slightly different tuning in the VVT. Not much else. Heads, valves, etc are all the same.

One of the main reasons the LT1 achieved its power bump was from a longer duration and higher lift for the exhaust cam lobes. BUT, that was only achieved by the cats being placed closer to the manifold, and thereby still passing cold-start emissions.

In the Camaro, there isn't room for the cats to be so close to the manifold, so using the LT2's cam will fail cold-start emissions.

Also, the high-rise intake manifold won't fit, but a new hood could be developed.

But, as someone mentioned above, there originally was a plan to have an Alpha2 based Camaro, and I am guessing it would use a different version of the LT2, with power in between the current LT1 and LT2 engines due to the reasons I listed above. So, it's still possible.

If someone would just make me in charge, I would adapt the LT2 for the Camaro, upgrade the ZL1 with the LT5, use the upcoming 5.5L N/A FPC engine in a stripped out Z/28, and refresh the body work to something a bit more appealing to the masses, and GM could continue to run the Camaro on the Alpha platform for many years to come.

Then, the Camaro can skip the Alpha2 platform and go straight to the new VSSR platform for the next generation.

[Choda]

i love the new gt500 and that youtube kid is making great videos showing its power on the track and on the dyno. makes stupid power and pulls like a freight train.

[Lafourche1]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Ford is not as open about it as GM is. GM has the major advantage there.

Seem to me, if you are building a great product, you put your warranty where your mouth is. Perhaps, this says it all.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

Seem to me, if you are building a great product, you put your warranty where your mouth is. Perhaps, this says it all.

Idk if the gt350/500s are track warrantied or not, but I know GTs aren't, and that's something that never gets mentioned in all the pp1/2 vs 1le shootouts. It matters.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Idk if the gt350/500s are track warrantied or not, but I know GTs aren't, and that's something that never gets mentioned in all the pp1/2 vs 1le shootouts. It matters.

350's are supposed to be, same as GM, no timed racing etc.