[Faster12]

Since I haven't seen anybody go full crybaby mode, I figured I would be the first. WTF GM?!!!!! Now that I've gotten that off my chest let's look at some facts:

2018 Dodge Demon: 3,000 US units, $86,000 MSRP, 808-840hp (ECM/Fuel dependent)

2019 Hellcat: Non-limited production, $58,000 MSRP (reduced from last year), 717hp

2019 Hellcat Redeye: Non-limited production, $69,000 MSRP, 797hp.

2019-20 GT500: 700+hp and possible 10spd auto.

What a time to be a car guy! But more importantly, not the best time for Chevy to compete. I love the euro centric, world beater that the Camaro has become, but man, you can't go picking on Germany because you're getting your butt kicked at home. I have some serious doubts about a 2019 ZL1 joining my stable now.

I'd like to know from some of the insiders we've got here; what can OR will Chevy do with this information? Yet again we've seen mid-cycle refreshes that don't result in any performance increases, while both of their competitors have done the opposite. The hellcat got a 10hp bump due to increased airflow, and the mustang got a 25hp bump. I get the straight line crown is not Chevy's focus, but man o man this is AMERICA! Put some more ponies under that hood!

[ST1LE]

There is some discussion along these lines in the versus thread below.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=531025

No manufacturer has made a better all around car to compete with the ZL1 yet. Sounds like you want straight line speed and hp numbers to brag about? The Hellcat has always been the king of that. GM decided a long time ago, evidenced by the Gen5, that the ZL1 was intended to be the best "all around" vehicle option. It has done so thus far, and has proven to be superior at the track compared to anything else in the segment. It is very likely the GT500 puts that dominance to the test, the non-1LE ZL1 anyway.

Exciting time for sure man! I for one am not interested in the 1 trick pony Challenger, but it seems the best choice as a strip/street only vehicle choice, with its insane power and large comfortable cabin. Just too damn heavy for me, I like to turn.

I am incredibly excited to see what Ford does with the GT500. I hope the GT350/R is not an indicator of hype over stating real world performance, and I hope it isnt a complete mechanical liability like the former mentioned 'track' car. Time will tell, I hope they release it soon!

[joe944]

If horsepower is the only thing you care about sounds like Dodge makes some perfect vehicles for you!

[Mcardenal]

I don't get it?
HP is important, but isn't going fast (faster than the other guy) more important?
The ZL1 came out in late 2016 (MoYe 2017) with more HP than the mustang GT350 R and less than the Hellcat. Yet it is faster than both (1/4 mile, 0-60, track, etc...) in stock form. The Demon came out almost 2 years after the 6th gen Zl1, the Redeye isn't even out yet and the latest GT500 doesn't even have a solid release date (just a bunch of teasers).
The latest ZR1 is a monster at 3300 lbs curb weight with 755HP (.23HP per pound) vs the Demon at 4400 lbs curb weight with 840HP MAX (.19HP per pound).
Just for additional comparison;
The ZL1 is at 3800 lbs curb weight with 650HP (.17HP per pound) vs the Hellcat at 4400 lbs curb weight with 717HP (.16HP per pound).
So explain to me what GM is playing catch up to?

[bomariam1]

Originally Posted by Faster12

Since I haven't seen anybody go full crybaby mode, I figured I would be the first. WTF GM?!!!!! Now that I've gotten that off my chest let's look at some facts:

2018 Dodge Demon: 3,000 US units, $86,000 MSRP, 808-840hp (ECM/Fuel dependent)

2019 Hellcat: Non-limited production, $58,000 MSRP (reduced from last year), 717hp

2019 Hellcat Redeye: Non-limited production, $69,000 MSRP, 797hp.

2019-20 GT500: 700+hp and possible 10spd auto.

What a time to be a car guy! But more importantly, not the best time for Chevy to compete. I love the euro centric, world beater that the Camaro has become, but man, you can't go picking on Germany because you're getting your butt kicked at home. I have some serious doubts about a 2019 ZL1 joining my stable now.

I'd like to know from some of the insiders we've got here; what can OR will Chevy do with this information? Yet again we've seen mid-cycle refreshes that don't result in any performance increases, while both of their competitors have done the opposite. The hellcat got a 10hp bump due to increased airflow, and the mustang got a 25hp bump. I get the straight line crown is not Chevy's focus, but man o man this is AMERICA! Put some more ponies under that hood!

Cry in another place, we all now what a ZL1 can do.
Its 650hp kick some serious euro expensive butt.


Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

[Faster12]

[QUOTE=Mcardenal;10243708]I don't get it?
HP is important, but isn't going fast (faster than the other guy) more important?
The ZL1 came out in late 2016 (MoYe 2017) with more HP than the mustang GT350 R and less than the Hellcat. Yet it is faster than both (1/4 mile, 0-60, track, etc...) in stock form. The Demon came out almost 2 years after the 6th gen Zl1, the Redeye isn't even out yet and the latest GT500 doesn't even have a solid release date (just a bunch of teasers).
The latest ZR1 is a monster at 3300 lbs curb weight with 755HP (.23HP per pound) vs the Demon at 4400 lbs curb weight with 840HP MAX (.19HP per pound).
Just for additional comparison;
The ZL1 is at 3800 lbs curb weight with 650HP (.17HP per pound) vs the Hellcat at 4400 lbs curb weight with 717HP (.16HP per pound).

While I understand every part of your argument, the fact still remains that the ZL1 could be more. Lest we forget, the ZL1 barely beat the GT350R around willow springs in MT testing. I was never a fan of the LT4 because of that tiny blower. I also do not like the centrifugal setups but for most of the LT4s making big power that seemed to be the way to go.

As you will have noticed, I did say I'm happy GM created a world beater in terms of all around performance, but I would still like to see a mid cycle refresh come with an hp bump or at least see them transplant the LT5 in this generation (wishful thinking). In all my ranting I did ask a question. I said what can or will GM do about it. We keep discussing this all around performance as if the MAJORITY of these drivers actually compete or autocross, road courses and the like. The fact is THEY DON'T. There are more stop-light to stop-light, highway pulls, and drag races than anything else.

I would bet my years salary that less than 30% of the people who purchase ZL1s (non 1LE), will ever do any of real track driving. While on the other hand, more than 50% will either a) go to a dragstrip at least once, b) run someone from a stop-light or at least aggressively accelerate to be cool, or c) participate in some illegal street racing/highway roll racing.

The all around sports car pitch is cool in conversation, but it's not quite the title I'd give two shits about if I race once or twice a year, or not at all.

So restating....do I like the handling, technology, and r&d behind the Camaro ZL1...yes, but can I also wish that I could outperform its rivals in ALL aspects....yes to that as well. Ford has already gotten hip to the suspension game offering carbon fiber wheels, magnetic ride, independent rear suspension. We are not exactly taking the world by storm in that regard anymore.

I just want the Camaro to be more. Is that so much to ask? Everytime we set the bar, the very next MY somebody shatters it. Remember the 2012 ZL1, yeah then came the 2013 GT500, and the 2015 Hellcat. Lol...see where I'm going. HP matters to Chevy too. Why the hell else would you have a 755hp Corvette??

[Firehead640]

Originally Posted by Faster12

2019-20 GT500: 700+hp and possible 10spd auto.

I really doubt the 10 speed part. I'm pretty sure that the Shelby Cars ONLY come with manual gearboxes, just like the ZL1 1LE. Hopefully I'm wrong, because a 10 speed on that thing would be absolutely monstrous.

(Yes, I know it is still just a Mustang. Cool car is a cool car to me.)

Spend another 3 or 4 grand on your ZL1, you'll have over 750 crank HP. All for the same cost as comparable Dodge and Ford models. You'll *mostly* walk all over them.

[joe944]

Originally Posted by Faster12

Lest we forget, the ZL1 barely beat the GT350R around willow springs in MT testing.

What did the Zl1 1lE do in comparison? How about the SS 1lE compared to the GT350?

Your arguments make no sense.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Faster12

Since I haven't seen anybody go full crybaby mode, I figured I would be the first. WTF GM?!!!!! ...I have some serious doubts about a 2019 ZL1 joining my stable now.

... I get the straight line crown is not Chevy's focus, but man o man this is AMERICA! Put some more ponies under that hood!

Like you said, winning armchair HP battles isn't the Camaro's focus. If you want more than 650HP, then go buy a Hellcat, or go aftermarket with the ZL1. No trouble getting over the grand with deep enough pockets.

Just remember, no matter how much power you have, there will always be someone with more.

[nicktechla]

Originally Posted by Firehead640

I really doubt the 10 speed part. I'm pretty sure that the Shelby Cars ONLY come with manual gearboxes, just like the ZL1 1LE. Hopefully I'm wrong, because a 10 speed on that thing would be absolutely monstrous.

(Yes, I know it is still just a Mustang. Cool car is a cool car to me.)

Spend another 3 or 4 grand on your ZL1, you'll have over 750 crank HP. All for the same cost as comparable Dodge and Ford models. You'll *mostly* walk all over them.

there are some rumors the GT500 might have the 7 speed DCT.

[kttxz06]

[QUOTE=Faster12;10243727]

Originally Posted by Mcardenal

I don't get it?
HP is important, but isn't going fast (faster than the other guy) more important?
The ZL1 came out in late 2016 (MoYe 2017) with more HP than the mustang GT350 R and less than the Hellcat. Yet it is faster than both (1/4 mile, 0-60, track, etc...) in stock form. The Demon came out almost 2 years after the 6th gen Zl1, the Redeye isn't even out yet and the latest GT500 doesn't even have a solid release date (just a bunch of teasers).
The latest ZR1 is a monster at 3300 lbs curb weight with 755HP (.23HP per pound) vs the Demon at 4400 lbs curb weight with 840HP MAX (.19HP per pound).
Just for additional comparison;
The ZL1 is at 3800 lbs curb weight with 650HP (.17HP per pound) vs the Hellcat at 4400 lbs curb weight with 717HP (.16HP per pound).

While I understand every part of your argument, the fact still remains that the ZL1 could be more. Lest we forget, the ZL1 barely beat the GT350R around willow springs in MT testing. I was never a fan of the LT4 because of that tiny blower. I also do not like the centrifugal setups but for most of the LT4s making big power that seemed to be the way to go.

As you will have noticed, I did say I'm happy GM created a world beater in terms of all around performance, but I would still like to see a mid cycle refresh come with an hp bump or at least see them transplant the LT5 in this generation (wishful thinking). In all my ranting I did ask a question. I said what can or will GM do about it. We keep discussing this all around performance as if the MAJORITY of these drivers actually compete or autocross, road courses and the like. The fact is THEY DON'T. There are more stop-light to stop-light, highway pulls, and drag races than anything else.

I would bet my years salary that less than 30% of the people who purchase ZL1s (non 1LE), will ever do any of real track driving. While on the other hand, more than 50% will either a) go to a dragstrip at least once, b) run someone from a stop-light or at least aggressively accelerate to be cool, or c) participate in some illegal street racing/highway roll racing.

The all around sports car pitch is cool in conversation, but it's not quite the title I'd give two shits about if I race once or twice a year, or not at all.

So restating....do I like the handling, technology, and r&d behind the Camaro ZL1...yes, but can I also wish that I could outperform its rivals in ALL aspects....yes to that as well. Ford has already gotten hip to the suspension game offering carbon fiber wheels, magnetic ride, independent rear suspension. We are not exactly taking the world by storm in that regard anymore.

I just want the Camaro to be more. Is that so much to ask? Everytime we set the bar, the very next MY somebody shatters it. Remember the 2012 ZL1, yeah then came the 2013 GT500, and the 2015 Hellcat. Lol...see where I'm going. HP matters to Chevy too. Why the hell else would you have a 755hp Corvette??

While I understand every part of your argument, the fact still remains that the ZL1 could be more. Lest we forget, the ZL1 barely beat the GT350R around willow springs in MT testing. I was never a fan of the LT4 because of that tiny blower. I also do not like the centrifugal setups but for most of the LT4s making big power that seemed to be the way to go.

__________________________________________________ _____________


No, but the Zl1 1LE did and that's it direct competitor. The Zl1 wiped the floor against the GT350.

[Faster12]

Originally Posted by joe944

What did the Zl1 1lE do in comparison? How about the SS 1lE compared to the GT350?

Your arguments make no sense.

My argument made perfect sense. The ZL1 with it's all around performance was still barely capable of beating the GT350R...so either 650 isn't enough or we need to cut some more weight. I want a definite winner and by a large margin. I'm asking GM to hold no punches. Make this thing the monster it can and should be.

[JB'sZL1]

Originally Posted by Faster12

My argument made perfect sense. The ZL1 with it's all around performance was still barely capable of beating the GT350R...so either 650 isn't enough or we need to cut some more weight. I want a definite winner and by a large margin. I'm asking GM to hold no punches. Make this thing the monster it can and should be.

At what cost? At what loss of production numbers? Gm is not stupid.

For far less than the cost differential of a demon, you can make the Z, or even a gen 5 Z, blow the doors off it. That's the part of the equation you've omitted: the Z costs substantially less than the Demon or 350R, but can do, oh, so much more. And will easily compete with them with mods that cost less than the msrp (or out the door) differential.

I guess, if you want to compete with a demon, buy one. Mod it substantially, and you will blow the doors off a stock Demon.

[Faster12]

[QUOTE=kttxz06;10243747]

Originally Posted by Faster12

While I understand every part of your argument, the fact still remains that the ZL1 could be more. Lest we forget, the ZL1 barely beat the GT350R around willow springs in MT testing. I was never a fan of the LT4 because of that tiny blower. I also do not like the centrifugal setups but for most of the LT4s making big power that seemed to be the way to go.

__________________________________________________ _____________


No, but the Zl1 1LE did and that's it direct competitor. The Zl1 wiped the floor against the GT350.

Can you show me the track times for all 4 vehicles on the same track? I can't find a willow springs lap time for the ZL1 1LE. I'm sure it's faster but I'd be interested to see by how much.