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Old 03-22-2019, 11:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by KingLT1 View Post
I would like to see the tune file and a log of the run. I have a hard time believing that a healthy LT1 is going to let go on 8psi with correct tuning and fueling. Just because this shop is "reputable" doesn't mean a lot in 2019. In the event the tuner made a mistake, he likely won't admit it and eat the labor/parts to fix your stuff.
This.

If others can make upwards of 800 with the same exact mechanical parts, yours can too. The only different factor is the tuner and how aggressive they are. It only has to take one detonation to lose a ringland. Little too much timing, little too lean, that's all it takes.
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Old 03-22-2019, 01:54 PM   #16
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That is correct as I also stated in another post. It happens and we have to suffer the consequences. I did
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:33 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by KingLT1 View Post
I would like to see the tune file and a log of the run. I have a hard time believing that a healthy LT1 is going to let go on 8psi with correct tuning and fueling. Just because this shop is "reputable" doesn't mean a lot in 2019. In the event the tuner made a mistake, he likely won't admit it and eat the labor/parts to fix your stuff.

I just recently had my Whipple setup dyno tuned by a "reputable shop" and first thing I did was hook my hp tuners and log to check the tune. I found a lot of stuff not addressed in the tune but the fueling and timing is right. I am also on e85 which is much better then 93 with boost on these high compression engines being it is very effective at pulling heat out of the cylinders and allows more room for error. I would consider making the switch or at least run meth with 93.

sorry for your loss.
Thanks. Of course my immediate reaction was that I was pissed and thought the timing was off or something. However, I’ve been working with this guy for years and he tuned my 5th Gen after another tuner couldn’t get it right. At some point you build a rapport with these guys and you have to trust them. When your doing any type of mods there is always a risk. I’ve had other parts faulty from the factory as well in the past. Have to let go of the anger, then move on hoping the outcome will be great. I just got the bill on all the additional parts, so I’m heading to happy hour to drown my sorrows ....
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:35 PM   #18
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Thanks. Of course my immediate reaction was that I was pissed and thought the timing was off or something. However, I’ve been working with this guy for years and he tuned my 5th Gen after another tuner couldn’t get it right. At some point you build a rapport with these guys and you have to trust them. When your doing any type of mods there is always a risk. I’ve had other parts faulty from the factory as well in the past. Have to let go of the anger, then move on hoping the outcome will be great. I just got the bill on all the additional parts, so I’m heading to happy hour to drown my sorrows ....
That is a great attitude we have to accept the risk with modifying anything.

Too many people want 1000 RWHP and a lifetime warranty on a beer budget.
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:07 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Sweet15 View Post
Thanks. Of course my immediate reaction was that I was pissed and thought the timing was off or something. However, I’ve been working with this guy for years and he tuned my 5th Gen after another tuner couldn’t get it right. At some point you build a rapport with these guys and you have to trust them. When your doing any type of mods there is always a risk. I’ve had other parts faulty from the factory as well in the past. Have to let go of the anger, then move on hoping the outcome will be great. I just got the bill on all the additional parts, so I’m heading to happy hour to drown my sorrows ....
That is the kind of attitude to have in this hobby. If you don't want frustration then don't mod right? This one could be a case of bad luck. I know I have had my share! Anyway, build it and send it!!
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:33 PM   #20
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Looking at all the photos like this I can't help but to think that the pistons really arn't the problem.... It looks like the piston rings expanded under the additional heat, butted up, and cracked the ringland. It's common knowledge to the people at performancetrucks.net that are running either the 4.8 or 5.3 that they could simply file down the piston rings a bit and the boost them to 1000rwhp (with stronger springs in the head but that's besides the point).

I wonder if it is the same thing for us (yes I know our engines are different)? I haven't heard of anyone trying this approach instead of drop in pistons... Really wish someone would if only to satisfy my curiosity.
This is correct. That piston failed due to heat causing the ring to bind. I have had it happen in the past and sometimes it's tune related (it was on mine) but sometimes it's other factors that come into play.

Modding is expensive.
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:12 PM   #21
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OP sorry for your loss. can you save the cylinder?

I also went with GPI and had good luck with the install. if you damage any of the diamond piston rings during install like i did; i can sell you a extra set or two if you need them.

good luck and file them very carefully!!!
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:43 PM   #22
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OP, sounds like you planned out your build the right way and just had some bad luck. A lot of guys on here, including myself have similar builds with no issues at all, so far. Just goes to show there are no guarantees, thanks for sharing. Best of luck on getting it all back together.
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Old 03-23-2019, 01:26 AM   #23
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Same happened to me...you'll get right.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:12 AM   #24
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This is a common problem with boosting a stock LT1, and the reason why it's common is already known. The factory is doing tight ring gaps, sometimes ridiculously tight. Shops have seen top ring gaps of .007" or .009" which is crazy. This means it's rolling the dice when you boost these, because yours might be really tight or just tight. Cooling mods like methanol injection or using E85 probably help to some extent by cutting down on the heat (less heat equals less chance of rings butting together and breaking the piston). But there is only so much you can get away with when the engines are assembled so wrong for using this type of modification.

Guys, boosting an engine always contains some amount of risk, we know that. But with THIS issue in the LT1, the risk is more than we'd normally feel that it is, so go into this knowing that the chances of breakage are increased on this engine. Unfortunately most people here parrot the fuel and tune stuff that is just generic to going boosted. The truth about the piston rings is ignored by those people, but it should absolutely be considered when thinking about boosting a stock LT1. Since heat is such a big issue, how you want to use your car will effect the chances of breakage. The guy from Procharger for example said to keep it to short runs of not longer than a 1/4 mile. Obviously longer runs or more boost would mean more heat, and therefore more likely to break. The fact that so many people with supercharged LT1s only screw around on the street, or just do short runs up to a 1/4 mile, gives a false sense of security. People say crap like so and so has 700hp or so and so has 800hp. Completely ignoring though, how many of these things have broken. Like I said, it's rolling the dice, you might be lucky or you might be on a tow truck. To be clear, I'm not flatly saying you should not supercharge your LT1, I'm just saying that you should understand how these engines are built, so that you can carefully evaluate what your use of the car and boost level chosen could mean with regards to these piston rings.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:21 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by hitmix300 View Post
I also went with GPI and had good luck with the install. if you damage any of the diamond piston rings during install like i did; i can sell you a extra set or two if you need them.

good luck and file them very carefully!!!
I bought a nice ring filing tool from Speedway out in the midwest. Works really nicely. Cuts so well that you need to be careful not to cut too much off though. Go slow with this unit.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:48 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by wnta1ss View Post
This is a common problem with boosting a stock LT1, and the reason why it's common is already known. The factory is doing tight ring gaps, sometimes ridiculously tight. Shops have seen top ring gaps of .007" or .009" which is crazy. This means it's rolling the dice when you boost these, because yours might be really tight or just tight. Cooling mods like methanol injection or using E85 probably help to some extent by cutting down on the heat (less heat equals less chance of rings butting together and breaking the piston). But there is only so much you can get away with when the engines are assembled so wrong for using this type of modification.

Guys, boosting an engine always contains some amount of risk, we know that. But with THIS issue in the LT1, the risk is more than we'd normally feel that it is, so go into this knowing that the chances of breakage are increased on this engine. Unfortunately most people here parrot the fuel and tune stuff that is just generic to going boosted. The truth about the piston rings is ignored by those people, but it should absolutely be considered when thinking about boosting a stock LT1. Since heat is such a big issue, how you want to use your car will effect the chances of breakage. The guy from Procharger for example said to keep it to short runs of not longer than a 1/4 mile. Obviously longer runs or more boost would mean more heat, and therefore more likely to break. The fact that so many people with supercharged LT1s only screw around on the street, or just do short runs up to a 1/4 mile, gives a false sense of security. People say crap like so and so has 700hp or so and so has 800hp. Completely ignoring though, how many of these things have broken. Like I said, it's rolling the dice, you might be lucky or you might be on a tow truck. To be clear, I'm not flatly saying you should not supercharge your LT1, I'm just saying that you should understand how these engines are built, so that you can carefully evaluate what your use of the car and boost level chosen could mean with regards to these piston rings.
There is no question you are on point but at the same time we have to know what causes the rings to butt in the first place.

I think everyone wants to blame boost or a HP number, but that is not the core of the issue.

We successfully supercharger engines from all walks of life, even the ones that everyone says to stay away from, we do more than Chevrolet cars here, we do GM, Ford, Chrysler, Jeep and Trucks from all the Domestic brands.

Combustion Temp, Water Temp, Air Temp, Air fuel ratio, octane and Timing all effect the final combustion temp, which is what controls or causes ring growth.

You can achieve much higher power levels and maintain same combustion Temps, or final ring temps.

I see too many combinations that are run way too lean, or over 570 RWHP on Stock fuel systems, which is the biggest contributor to high combustion temps and eminent engine failure.

The internet said I should run my DFI engine at 12.8-13:1 AFR and I call bullshit.

I run my supercharged DFI engine at .80-.82 lambda or 11.76-12.0 and they live even at high power levels and high duty cycle.

I have run up and down the AFR or Lambda Scale on my dyno with every engine combination and I always end up back at -.80-.82 for best mean torque and engine life.

I will go richer for higher duty cycle combinations

Some of this fuel is wasted in cooling the piston and rings.

Food for thought and is by no means specific to this thread.

Ted.
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:03 AM   #27
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There is no question you are on point but at the same time we have to know what causes the rings to butt in the first place.
Obviously the rings expand from heat. The problem is, if you start out with a .007" or .009" gap cold, then your engine won't be able to withstand the heat that it would if it had started out at a .015" or .020" gap cold. That is why the (varying) problem of the ring gaps in the LT1 is so important to be known. No matter how good the tune is, if you are one of the unlucky ones that slaps a supercharger onto a .007" engine, you will not be able to do the same things that someone who's engine has say .015" will. In other words, a good tune does not actually fix the mechanical problem. It only attempts to minimize the effects of it.
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:16 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by wnta1ss View Post
Obviously the rings expand from heat. The problem is, if you start out with a .007" or .009" gap cold, then your engine won't be able to withstand the heat that it would if it had started out at a .015" or .020" gap cold. That is why the (varying) problem of the ring gaps in the LT1 is so important to be known. No matter how good the tune is, if you are one of the unlucky ones that slaps a supercharger onto a .007" engine, you will not be able to do the same things that someone who's engine has say .015" will. In other words, a good tune does not actually fix the mechanical problem. It only attempts to minimize the effects of it.
Like I said you are absolutely on point.
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