[Puddin]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

This could not "turn a corner" worth a shit either. But I would have rocked one in a second, mullet and all!

WHERE is this!!! IT is LHD and all!

Don't stir em up Fran. Dodge builds terrible cars

[Malbjey]

I've had moderately sized coolers that couldn't fit in the Camaro's trunk because of the stupid opening. :-/



I had to load them in the backseat. I wouldn't have to make that compromise with the Challenger, especially if I'm going to transport an adult in the backseat as well.

[Malbjey]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

This could not "turn a corner" worth a shit either. But I would have rocked one in a second, mullet and all!

WHERE is this!!! IT is RHD and all!

May very well be in the USA. People have been converting Pontiac G8s to Utes:


https://lefthandutes.com/about.html

[Silveradoss573]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

I'd rock one of these if I was promised that I didn't have to have a Mullet.

WTF???

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Look at the data, they became number one with 52,000 units in 2021 in the worst segment in the entire industry. I'm sure there are people at Stallantis playing up the "we're Number 1" to build morale with the employees, but this isn't anything to write home about.

Actually, it is bigger if you figure all 3 (or 4 if you count Chargers). And, if you count the foreign cars that have made inroads on this segment, I am sure it goes higher. That being said, they have consistently supported and grew their base since 2009.

Originally Posted by Number 3

You couldn't get a new Dodge Challenger program approved if your business plan was 52,000 units (helps that the Challenger is based on the higher volume Charger). But yeah, they were number 1.

LOL. You can't sell what you don't have. That goes for every manufacturer.
We're both smart enough to understand that there is zero inventory on the lots and they are having a hard time just filling orders. (Even though Dodge is doing their "jailbreak" editions). Chevrolet is offering their "No Break" campaign....

Originally Posted by Number 3

And to your link, GM will gladly build you a COPO Camaro as well. So I don't see that as to why they are Number 1. Ford has a similar program I believe.

You didn't read the entire article. Dodge's DC program will sell you factory Hi-Po parts and tuners over the counter that are emission compliant AND will allow you to keep your factory warranty. Chevy will void your warranty if you put on Chevrolet headers.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Even if a miracle happened and Camaro vaulted to Number 1 in this segment, at this point it would mean nothing from a business standpoint. Volumes are so low at this point, it just doesn't matter.

I agree. Like I said... They took a good selling car (5th gen) and let it wither away on the vine.

Dodge took an old MB chassis that was dead nuts last and played into the top seller by earning it.
And in the process took quite a few Camaro owners away....

[Puddin]

The sad part is Chevy teamed up with one of the best header manufacturers out there. It's the same way if you do their hotcam package as well. Why even sell the parts if you're not going to warranty anything.

[S8ER01Z]

Originally Posted by 90503

Ever since the 5thGen refresh, with the exception of the Z/28, Chevy and Camaro kicked retro to the curb. They tried to be more sophisticated and appeal to European styling and tastes with the Camaro and evolved styling, but it didn't work.

The Challenger stayed retro and ultimately did better in sales. The Challenger, heavier, roomier, marginal handling....but with a Hemi. That is muscle-car and that is retro. Camaro might have built a better over-all car, but got away from what made them successful initially.

All too late to do anything about it now. Get 'em while you can. My $.02.

This…. I didn’t like the 5th gen and the 6th gen doesn’t really do much for me either. I kept my 4th gen Z28 and had a Challenger up until I traded it for the Durango Hellcat. I know guys just love to brag about handling but in day to day life even my Durango will hold an on-ramp well enough to put a smile on your face. I don’t really need a race car and Dodge products are just easy to live with. 🤷

It probably doesn’t hurt that I never felt like the 4th gen handled “like shit” so I was more than happy with the Challenger 😂

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

Actually, it is bigger if you figure all 3 (or 4 if you count Chargers). And, if you count the foreign cars that have made inroads on this segment, I am sure it goes higher. That being said, they have consistently supported and grew their base since 2009.

The reality.

Since 2015 the segment is down 51.7%

Camaro down 71.8%
Mustang down 57.2%
Challenger down 18.2%

One can literally say that since 2018, GM abandoned the Camaro. No new development since 2018 and they never promoted it or subsidized its sales with cash on the hood. Gen 6 (2016) delivered a superior car, but at a significantly higher price than the other two.

[95 imp]

While I'd agree that the numbers for the segment are dropping, I'd argue that 20 and 21 aren't accurate predictors of the actual market.

All the factories have gone thru multiple shutdowns and parts shortages. I waited 3 extra months in 2020 for my car and currently, there are ZERO Camaros on either lot at the 2 local dealerships.

I'd also say that sporty imports, such as the Kia Stinger, BMW M2, etc, are eating into the "traditional" pony car market. (If you look at them, they have long hood/short deck and respectable HP numbers even though they are not "American Muscle/Pony Cars).

So, I think, there is still a vast market for these 3 cars. Younger generations aren't being attracted in to this market like they used to either.

That being said, the numbers show that Dodge took the Challenger from 16.8% to 42.2% (or DOUBLED their market share by 2019). Chevrolet almost HALVED their sales during the same period and did nothing to stop it (Save for the introduction of the LT1).

As far as the "sub-prime" loan thing that some people have brought up....

Does it really matter to the factory that you can't afford your car and you get it repro'd?
Or did the lender give the money for the car to the dealer (factory) and they sold a car?

It's the lenders problem to collect the money. If they don't, the car doesn't go back to the factory and they minus a sell. The same lender will lend on a Mustang, Camaro, or any other car if they think they can get a ROI.

Bottom line? Chevrolet is screwing the pooch and Dodge is selling the crack HP junkies want.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

It does seem kind of odd what some people knock the Camaro for. I won't DD the Camaro either, but my situation isn't everyone else's situation.

And that right there is the problem. You begin by saying it's odd what people knock the camaro for, and then say you won't DD yours and and admit your situation is different. And therein lies the problem. GM built the car for people like you(which is great, glad you love it it's an amazing machine) The problem is people like you are a super small percentage of the market for these cars.

I would bet a healthy sum that GM could have made a Camaro that had a bigger trunk/visibilty/backseat blah blah all that stuff and still run circles around the competition. I don't want the camaro to go away, it makes every car in the segment better even though that the segment is dying. Most people here can look past those issues, the majority can't. that is why the camaro is riding off into the sunset most likely

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

This could not "turn a corner" worth a shit either. But I would have rocked one in a second, mullet and all!

WHERE is this!!! IT is RHD and all!

When pontiac was rumored to bring that over as the G8 ST I wanted one so bad. I was so heartbroken when it was cancelled.

[Number 3]

There is a lot data we don't see in these sales chart, hence much more to the story.

When I last saw the data, GM had the lowest educated, lowest income customer base in the industry.

So here is the list:

Sex
Age
Income
Education
1st, 2nd or 3rd car
Purchase or Lease
Trade in

Another data point, however, was at one point, Chevrolet led every company in sales of vehicles over $50,000. Silverado, Suburban and Tahoe covered that. Of course, today many more vehicles can be priced over $50,000.

I can assure you GM has all the data and understands what went wrong. They know why people buy and why people don't. We can only speculate on that. However, to fix what went wrong (Styling, Visibility, Trunk Space, Rear Seat Roominess, among others) is several hundred million dollars. And with the market for these 3 down to 125,000 units and the coupe market dwindling overall, there just isn't a business case to invest that kind of money. Even if GM were to capture number 1 in this segment, they would invest hundreds of millions to gain 30,000 units.

The winner is simply Ford, who does no more marketing or advertising than GM and they pretty much have maintained 40% market share, with little effort.

As a for the comment that there is a "vast market" for these 3 cars? Data suggests otherwise as this is a shrinking subset of a shrinking market. And as much as we might love the Camaro, there isn't a place for it.

What will be very interesting is what happens in 2025/26. Camaro will be gone with no announced replacement. Dodge has announced and EV replacement (not specifically a coupe that I've seen) and Ford by then will have released the as rumored NG Mustang with AWD, Hybrid drivetrain.

[LT1ornothing]

If you thought first year of new model cars were plagued with issues when they were powered by internal combustion engines, just wait until all these first model year EVs hit the streets. The shit show is going to be very real.

[redcoats1976]

probably so...just dont park next to one in case it catches on fire...

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by 1LEornothing

If you thought first year of new model cars were plagued with issues when they were powered by internal combustion engines, just wait until all these first model year EVs hit the streets. The shit show is going to be very real.

I was a bit worried about this when I bought a Tesla Model 3. It has been 3 years and so far so good. The Tesla battery, drivetrain and software UI has been very good. No issues with rattling, electronics, suspension, etc. I just replaced tires not too long ago. EVs instant torque likes to eat up tires pretty good. Build quality, panel gaps, trim is less than average for this price point but somewhat expected going in. Maybe Tesla with more years of EV experience has performed better than what we will see from the traditional automakers. I think overall EVs are simpler and one of the big drivers to migrate. The big concern is how much a battery is going to cost you if it needs replacing out of warranty. Tesla gives 8 years 120kmi on the drivetrain so I am not concerned but the used market will be interesting.

Time will tell.