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Old 06-17-2020, 05:36 PM   #15
UnknownJinX

 
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I think some visualizations should help.

Ford Gen 1 Coyote cutaway:



GM LT1 cutaway:



You will see that Coyote has four valves for each cylinder and 2 camshafts above each cylinder bank, while the LT1 has two valves for each cylinder and only 1 camshaft in the valley of the V.

In general, engines are either optimized for high-end or low-end torque/power. An engine that excels at high-end power will have to sacrifice some low-end power and vice versa. The others have already covered the specifics, so in general, Coyote will have better high-end performance due to being able to rev higher, while LT1 is more focused on giving you low-end torque on the go. The LT1 is said to be capable of 300+ lb-ft at 1000 RPM.



This graph should give you an idea of how a pushrod engine(LS7) and a DOHC engine(5.2 Voodoo) delivers the power. Notice that they have similar peak HP figures, but the LS7 gives you more torque down low and that benefits the low-end power.

This is also why the peak HP numbers can be deceiving. In reality, torque curve is a much more important figure to look at and paints a better image of the engine performance.

On another note, because of the low-end torque small blocks are capable of, you don't have to rev them as high when daily driving and they can be geared to rev very slowly on highways, which results in slightly better fuel economy when you compare Camaro SS's EPA test figures to Mustang GT's.

BTW, HP per litre is pretty useless as others have said, especially with this in mind:



If specific output is everything, buy a 2-stroke and Wankel rotary, which make even 4-stroke DOHC engine's specific output look absolutely stupid.
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Old 06-18-2020, 03:20 AM   #16
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Great thread!
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Old 06-18-2020, 04:42 AM   #17
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Great thread!
You're welcome!
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnknownJinX View Post
I think some visualizations should help.

Ford Gen 1 Coyote cutaway:



GM LT1 cutaway:



You will see that Coyote has four valves for each cylinder and 2 camshafts above each cylinder bank, while the LT1 has two valves for each cylinder and only 1 camshaft in the valley of the V.

In general, engines are either optimized for high-end or low-end torque/power. An engine that excels at high-end power will have to sacrifice some low-end power and vice versa. The others have already covered the specifics, so in general, Coyote will have better high-end performance due to being able to rev higher, while LT1 is more focused on giving you low-end torque on the go. The LT1 is said to be capable of 300+ lb-ft at 1000 RPM.



This graph should give you an idea of how a pushrod engine(LS7) and a DOHC engine(5.2 Voodoo) delivers the power. Notice that they have similar peak HP figures, but the LS7 gives you more torque down low and that benefits the low-end power.

This is also why the peak HP numbers can be deceiving. In reality, torque curve is a much more important figure to look at and paints a better image of the engine performance.

On another note, because of the low-end torque small blocks are capable of, you don't have to rev them as high when daily driving and they can be geared to rev very slowly on highways, which results in slightly better fuel economy when you compare Camaro SS's EPA test figures to Mustang GT's.

BTW, HP per litre is pretty useless as others have said, especially with this in mind:



If specific output is everything, buy a 2-stroke and Wankel rotary, which make even 4-stroke DOHC engine's specific output look absolutely stupid.
Good post for OP to read.
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnknownJinX View Post
I think some visualizations should help.

Ford Gen 1 Coyote cutaway:



GM LT1 cutaway:



You will see that Coyote has four valves for each cylinder and 2 camshafts above each cylinder bank, while the LT1 has two valves for each cylinder and only 1 camshaft in the valley of the V.

In general, engines are either optimized for high-end or low-end torque/power. An engine that excels at high-end power will have to sacrifice some low-end power and vice versa. The others have already covered the specifics, so in general, Coyote will have better high-end performance due to being able to rev higher, while LT1 is more focused on giving you low-end torque on the go. The LT1 is said to be capable of 300+ lb-ft at 1000 RPM.



This graph should give you an idea of how a pushrod engine(LS7) and a DOHC engine(5.2 Voodoo) delivers the power. Notice that they have similar peak HP figures, but the LS7 gives you more torque down low and that benefits the low-end power.

This is also why the peak HP numbers can be deceiving. In reality, torque curve is a much more important figure to look at and paints a better image of the engine performance.

On another note, because of the low-end torque small blocks are capable of, you don't have to rev them as high when daily driving and they can be geared to rev very slowly on highways, which results in slightly better fuel economy when you compare Camaro SS's EPA test figures to Mustang GT's.

BTW, HP per litre is pretty useless as others have said, especially with this in mind:



If specific output is everything, buy a 2-stroke and Wankel rotary, which make even 4-stroke DOHC engine's specific output look absolutely stupid.
While I realize the Coyote is physically larger than the GM small block, this picture is slightly misleading. First of all, the Coyote is physically closer to the lens, which amplifies the size compared to the LS. The LS is also completely bare, no coil packs, no TB, no water pump, no accessories, no vacuum hoses, fuel rails, etc., all of which are shown on the Coyote, making it appear more clunky or cumbersome.

That said, I believe that despite their size differences, are not the LS/LT engines and the Coyote very similar in weight? Also, the LS appears to be a physically taller engine as well from that pic, by several inches.
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:31 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
While I realize the Coyote is physically larger than the GM small block, this picture is slightly misleading. First of all, the Coyote is physically closer to the lens, which amplifies the size compared to the LS. The LS is also completely bare, no coil packs, no TB, no water pump, no accessories, no vacuum hoses, fuel rails, etc., all of which are shown on the Coyote, making it appear more clunky or cumbersome.

That said, I believe that despite their size differences, are not the LS/LT engines and the Coyote very similar in weight? Also, the LS appears to be a physically taller engine as well from that pic, by several inches.
Good points about the photo. I think a more fair comparison would be these, then. How about we look at a LS2 swapped 86 and a Coyote swapped 86? Both are fully dressed and the engine bay is the same size.





I think the reason why Coyote swaps are not as dominant is because of the width, which you can kinda see in these photos. In terms of engine packaging, I would think width is a much bigger headache to deal with than height. There are a few ways to make the engine shorter in height such as adding a dry-sump oil system(so you don't need a deep oil pan), while I can't really think of ways to make an engine narrower easily. 86 comes with Flat-4 engines, which probably means a Coyote's extra width isn't a huge issue. On cars with I4 engines stock, I can imagine the swap needing more work and in some cases, impossible.

I believe I looked up the weight before and yep, weight is similar between an LT1 and a Coyote.
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:16 PM   #21
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Good points about the photo. I think a more fair comparison would be these, then. How about we look at a LS2 swapped 86 and a Coyote swapped 86? Both are fully dressed and the engine bay is the same size.





I think the reason why Coyote swaps are not as dominant is because of the width, which you can kinda see in these photos. In terms of engine packaging, I would think width is a much bigger headache to deal with than height. There are a few ways to make the engine shorter in height such as adding a dry-sump oil system(so you don't need a deep oil pan), while I can't really think of ways to make an engine narrower easily. 86 comes with Flat-4 engines, which probably means a Coyote's extra width isn't a huge issue. On cars with I4 engines stock, I can imagine the swap needing more work and in some cases, impossible.

I believe I looked up the weight before and yep, weight is similar between an LT1 and a Coyote.
Good pics. Yeah, the Coyote has very large heads to hold those DOHCs and 32 valves.

No matter how narrow the GM small block is, it was always a pain to swap headers on my LT1 Trans Am back in the day. I got pretty good at it after 3 times, though. Small dia. shorties to Jet Hot LTs w/out cat to large dia. SLP shorties w/ hi-flow cat.
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:45 AM   #22
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While I realize the Coyote is physically larger than the GM small block, this picture is slightly misleading. First of all, the Coyote is physically closer to the lens, which amplifies the size compared to the LS. The LS is also completely bare, no coil packs, no TB, no water pump, no accessories, no vacuum hoses, fuel rails, etc., all of which are shown on the Coyote, making it appear more clunky or cumbersome.

That said, I believe that despite their size differences, are not the LS/LT engines and the Coyote very similar in weight? Also, the LS appears to be a physically taller engine as well from that pic, by several inches.
I get that you are sort of down playing the size difference, but while the coils and hoses may add some visual bulk most people will look at how far the heads go out width wise and the distance between the oil pan and intake manifold.

While there are some discrepancies in the numbers you'll see from different sources for dimensions of these engine if you dig deep you'll find that the coyote is both taller and longer than the lt1/ls though not by much. The biggest and most substantial dimensional difference is in width. The dohc heads are obviously much bulkier and are the biggest contributor to the size difference.

The heigh differences you mention in the picture is a little misleading because you actually can't see the lowest point of the 5.0s oil pan due to the way and what it's being rested on. Take a closer look.

The lt1's and ls's also have some slight dimensional differences between each other, as well as having dry sump and wet sump versions which affect the height of the engine and add more variables to dimensions listed. Throw in truck engines and their tall manifolds as well as different points measured by different sources and there's a lot of numbers out there. How they're measured also affects some different coyote stats you'll see as well.

Weight wise they are pretty similar, both seem to be in the mid 400s . Also hard to get an accurate comparison since they may not be wearing the same amount of accessories.
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Old 06-20-2020, 03:29 PM   #23
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I get that you are sort of down playing the size difference, but while the coils and hoses may add some visual bulk most people will look at how far the heads go out width wise and the distance between the oil pan and intake manifold.

While there are some discrepancies in the numbers you'll see from different sources for dimensions of these engine if you dig deep you'll find that the coyote is both taller and longer than the lt1/ls though not by much. The biggest and most substantial dimensional difference is in width. The dohc heads are obviously much bulkier and are the biggest contributor to the size difference.

The heigh differences you mention in the picture is a little misleading because you actually can't see the lowest point of the 5.0s oil pan due to the way and what it's being rested on. Take a closer look.

The lt1's and ls's also have some slight dimensional differences between each other, as well as having dry sump and wet sump versions which affect the height of the engine and add more variables to dimensions listed. Throw in truck engines and their tall manifolds as well as different points measured by different sources and there's a lot of numbers out there. How they're measured also affects some different coyote stats you'll see as well.

Weight wise they are pretty similar, both seem to be in the mid 400s . Also hard to get an accurate comparison since they may not be wearing the same amount of accessories.
Good points. I was looking at the distance from the center of the crank to the TB mounting position on the IM. There appears to be several inches more on the LS than the Coyote. On the Coyote, there's essentially only room for the water pulley, and then the TB starts. But, the oil pan counts and you're right, difficult to see in that pic.

But yes, the Coyote is significantly wider than the GM small block due to the large heads. I guess that's the nature of the different engine type.
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Old 06-21-2020, 02:40 PM   #24
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It's only meaningless when you are comparing two different types of engines such as OHV vs. DOHC vs FI. Hp/liter is not meaningless when comparing the same engine types.
Yes, but even for FI engines, it's a pretty useless metric too, because it will just tell you which engine has more boost. It would be a useful metric if you could compare at the same boost level though...
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Old 06-22-2020, 10:36 AM   #25
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Yes, but even for FI engines, it's a pretty useless metric too, because it will just tell you which engine has more boost. It would be a useful metric if you could compare at the same boost level though...
Also, turbochargers and intercoolers add weight, so if you add those to the engine weight calculations, their advantage compared to a bigger displacement NA engine can vanish.

Unless you have to pay road tax based on displacement or idle a lot, HP per displacement is pretty useless.

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Old 06-22-2020, 12:33 PM   #26
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HP per liter is a MEANINGLESS metric
Bingo. Horsepower for weight would be more meaningful. Barring limits on displacement due to regulatory or taxation reasons, where they exist, if extra displacement comes at no cost to added weight ( and/or added bulk ) then whatever displacement increase available is all gravy. All that matters is power and it's ability to accelerate a vehicle: For it's size, a carpenter ant is many more times stronger than me, but there's no doubt I'll prevail in a one-on-one contest against it.

Another thing many seem to overlook is total available power and torque, and not just at the peak, but the area under the curve as well.

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Old 06-22-2020, 12:57 PM   #27
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Bingo. Horsepower for weight would be more meaningful. Barring limits on displacement due to regulatory or taxation reasons, where they exist, if extra displacement comes at no cost to added weight ( and/or added bulk ) then whatever displacement increase available is all gravy. All that matters is power and it's ability to accelerate a vehicle: For it's size, a carpenter is many more times stronger than me, but there's no doubt I'll prevail in a one-on-one contest against it.

Another thing many seem to overlook is total available power and torque, and not just at the peak, but the area under the curve as well.
When you say "carpenter" do you mean a guy who builds furniture, or say, and interior trim carpenter. If it's the former, you probably could take him (they are usually old guys), but I have met some pretty strong trim carpenters on the job site..
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Old 06-22-2020, 03:22 PM   #28
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When you say "carpenter" do you mean a guy who builds furniture, or say, and interior trim carpenter. If it's the former, you probably could take him (they are usually old guys), but I have met some pretty strong trim carpenters on the job site..

I screwed up: I meant "carpenter ant'. Just edited my post above. 'Carpenter ant'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpenter_ant


One of those things carrying a wooden matchstick would be like one of us carrying a telephone pole.
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