Homepage Garage Wiki Register Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
#Camaro6
Go Back   CAMARO6 > CAMARO6.com General Forums > 2016+ Camaro: 6th Gen Camaro general forum


AWE Tuning


Post Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-24-2019, 09:26 PM   #743
AZCamaroFan
Camaro6 2016-2018
 
AZCamaroFan's Avatar
 
Drives: sometimes
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 18,131
i saw the C8 today. anyone else here see it ?
__________________
AZCamaroFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 06:37 AM   #744
wnta1ss

 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman View Post
I think I understook. I'm pointing out AGAIN that lowering springs are mainly for looks. While the 1LE and the ZL1 / 1LE springs are for performace.
If you had actually understood, then the fact that the SS with the lowering kit ran quicker times on the track than it had with stock suspension should have sunk in. Regardless of whether you think lowering springs are for looks, THIS kit that I was talking about was tested by GM to improve track performance.
wnta1ss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 07:32 AM   #745
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
 
Norm Peterson's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 10 Legacy 2.5GT, ...
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 6,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnta1ss View Post
If you had actually understood, then the fact that the SS with the lowering kit ran quicker times on the track than it had with stock suspension should have sunk in. Regardless of whether you think lowering springs are for looks, THIS kit that I was talking about was tested by GM to improve track performance.
I doubt that the lowering - taken independently of any spring rate and damping increase - provided much of that improvement.

That the lowering springs were a bit stiffer, sure. The same stiffness springs could have been provided at 10mm lower, or not any lower at all, and I doubt there'd be much difference (and the lower car could well turn out to be slower). Obviously the much firmer DSSV kit isn't trading on the amount of lowering for its performance improvement.

Chevy realizes that lowering sells mainly on appearance and that people will go at least to the 'more' part of "if some's good, more's better, too much is just enough" without having any clue about where 'too much' begins.

Making lowering springs somewhat firmer is something you 'd do just to keep the car from hitting the bump stops as often, and from there you'd have to specify a bit more damping. In which case the handling improvement might only be a side effect, strictly incidental.


Norm
__________________
'08 GT coupe 5M (the occasional track toy)
'19 WRX 6M (the family sedan) and an '01 Maxima 5M (the spare)

Last edited by Norm Peterson; 08-25-2019 at 08:25 AM.
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 08:22 AM   #746
Martinjlm
Retired from GM
 
Martinjlm's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Detroit
Posts: 2,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan View Post
i saw the C8 today. anyone else here see it ?
I’ve seen it a few times. But then, I live in Detroit and know a number of people on the Camaro and Corvette teams, so there’s that. Here’s a video I shot at Woodward Dream Cruise. I think this is the same setup that goes to the dealership road show.

https://youtu.be/Truh4LivZLY
__________________
2017 CAMARO FIFTY SS CONVERTIBLE
A8 | MRC | NPP | Nav | HUD |GM Performance CAI |Thinkware Q800 Pro front and rear dash cam | Charcoal Tint for Taillights and 3rd Brakelight | Orange and Carbon Fiber Bowties |Novistretch bra and mirror covers |Tow hitch for bicycle rack |


Martinjlm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 08:53 AM   #747
wnta1ss

 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
I doubt that the lowering - taken independently of any spring rate and damping increase - provided much of that improvement.
Seems like you misunderstand as well. I was talking about a specific GM kit that produced quicker lap times in GM's testing. You are conducting a straw man argument with this, because I certainly did not say that lowering alone was the performance gain.
wnta1ss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 09:39 AM   #748
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
 
Norm Peterson's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 10 Legacy 2.5GT, ...
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 6,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnta1ss View Post
Seems like you misunderstand as well. I was talking about a specific GM kit that produced quicker lap times in GM's testing. You are conducting a straw man argument with this, because I certainly did not say that lowering alone was the performance gain.
That specific GM lowering kit did more than just lower the car, and was tested in conjunction with a specific handling kit rather than separately. I'm afraid you didn't even try to separate the effect of lowering (by itself) from the effect of increased stiffnesses in the lowering kit, and you completely ignored the effect of the separate handling kit. By your omission, most people are going to read "the SS with the lowering kit ran quicker times on the track than it had with stock suspension" as crediting the lowering alone. You may not have meant it that way, but that is the way it'll be read.

People already believe that more lowering is better than less because real race cars are lowered, so if they lower their own cars to look like a race car they must be getting a big handling improvement in the process, right?

Wrong. It doesn't work quite that way, so what I'm trying to do is get people to step away from directly associating lowering with handling.

Which I suspect was oldman's intent as well.


Norm
__________________
'08 GT coupe 5M (the occasional track toy)
'19 WRX 6M (the family sedan) and an '01 Maxima 5M (the spare)
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 10:50 AM   #749
oldman


 
Drives: SS 6 speed of course
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: austin
Posts: 3,052
I feel safe in Norm's hands.....
Go back and read what 6speedhyperblue has posted. This is an apples to watermelon comparison. You basically keep saying it is the eLDS and geewiz that makes the 1LE faster but discount the fact that the test is using lowering springs and dampers for lowering springs. YES, IMO, a set of proper road race springs and dampers would close that 2 second gap PERIOD.

The DSSV package did not have the 1LE tire = FAIL
The DSSV package did not have the ZL1 - 1LE tire = FAIL I know which car I want to race....


The DSSV setup, probably WAY too stiff for the stock SS tires, still I admit that I'm surprised, but this is only one course over one day. The DSSV can be setup for 1.5 negative camber at the track... was this done on their test? doubtful.


GM did not compare the bolt-on (complete with MRC) 1le to the real 1le so we have NO IDEA what the eLSD and geewiz adds. Probably less for an experienced driver.

GM since they are only marketing what the sell and make no doubt about it, it was all done for marketing, they don't have a passive damper for the 1LE spring. So what would about a bolt-on 1le with dual damped adjust Konis do against a real 1LE?

I'm back to the garage now putting in my forged engine into my M6 Camaro. I am thinking about what needs to be done to put the M6 into a 2.9 second 0 -60 time with street tires on a normal road. Either 100 wear 888R or 240 to 300 wear maybe a PS4s. For sure I need to do it in one gear as the shift alone would put me back into the 3s. ZL1 trans would do it, don't know if I can find and fit just the 2.29 1st gear. It also looks like a 7200 RPM fuel cut would do it.... There will be C8 on the street I don't want them to catch the oldman napping.
__________________
2016 to 2017 Stage 1, FBO, ported MSD, 103 TB, E85

2018 Stage 2, P1C, 4.0 pulley, Pray ported heads, Pray stage 1 blower cam, TxSpeed valvetrain, 103mm TB, ported MSD, 1 and 7/8 headers

2019 stage 3: Forged short block 11.5 CR, "defined lope" supercharger cam 33% fuel lobe from Cam Motion, Pray Ported Heads, 3.65 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, 2 BOVs, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0, Kooks 2" coated, Lingenfelter injectors, ZL1 driveshaft and half shafts, wrap starter and header, MSD intake, 103 MM TB, BTR valvetrain.

Last edited by oldman; 08-25-2019 at 11:18 AM.
oldman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 11:17 AM   #750
orange devil

 
orange devil's Avatar
 
Drives: 2019 SS 2019 mustang GT
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: High Desert California
Posts: 1,541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
I’ve seen it a few times. But then, I live in Detroit and know a number of people on the Camaro and Corvette teams, so there’s that. Here’s a video I shot at Woodward Dream Cruise. I think this is the same setup that goes to the dealership road show.

https://youtu.be/Truh4LivZLY
Great video ..thank you !
orange devil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2019, 06:05 AM   #751
wnta1ss

 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
That specific GM lowering kit did more than just lower the car
No kidding, the way that you keep going with your straw man, it looks to me like you are letting yourself get wrapped around the axle because the kit happens to be called the 'lowering kit'. You need to focus on the 'kit' part instead. Pretty simple, GM offers the 'lowering kit' for cars that don't have MRC, whereas cars with MRC can use the 1LE springs with a recalibration of the MRC if they are model year 2017 and newer. 2 solutions from GM for lower/stiffer springs with an accompanying adjustment to the dampening.
wnta1ss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2019, 06:16 AM   #752
wnta1ss

 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman View Post
I feel safe in Norm's hands.....
Go back and read what 6speedhyperblue has posted. This is an apples to watermelon comparison. You basically keep saying it is the eLDS and geewiz that makes the 1LE faster but discount the fact that the test is using lowering springs and dampers for lowering springs. YES, IMO, a set of proper road race springs and dampers would close that 2 second gap PERIOD.
Test car was non-MRC so it had the 'lowering kit' which is springs and shocks. MRC car 2017+ could use the 1LE springs with MRC cal. My point was that thinking the 1LE spring with MRC is 2 seconds faster than the 'lowering kit' springs and revalved shocks seems pretty far-fetched. So then you have to question whether the 1LE parts/features that cannot be added later (eLSD and PTM) is making for a difference in lap times. My overall point on his hypothesis was, you cannot truly make an SS into a 1LE after the fact, so the comparison that he had in mind won't work.
wnta1ss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2019, 06:31 AM   #753
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
 
Norm Peterson's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 10 Legacy 2.5GT, ...
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 6,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnta1ss View Post
No kidding, the way that you keep going with your straw man, it looks to me like you are letting yourself get wrapped around the axle because the kit happens to be called the 'lowering kit'. You need to focus on the 'kit' part instead. Pretty simple, GM offers the 'lowering kit' for cars that don't have MRC, whereas cars with MRC can use the 1LE springs with a recalibration of the MRC if they are model year 2017 and newer. 2 solutions from GM for lower/stiffer springs with an accompanying adjustment to the dampening.
So why do you think that GM decided not to call it a "street handling kit" instead?

Items for sale are normally labelled in a way that indicates their primary intent. Calling this a 'kit' does not change that, only means that you're getting more than just the springs. Does it improve anything else, like handling? Sure. But that doesn't change the kit's primary mission.

Availability of the ZL1 1LE Handling and DSSV kits (specifically noted as being preferred for autocross) makes your straw man accusation go away.


Norm
__________________
'08 GT coupe 5M (the occasional track toy)
'19 WRX 6M (the family sedan) and an '01 Maxima 5M (the spare)
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2019, 07:05 AM   #754
Martinjlm
Retired from GM
 
Martinjlm's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Detroit
Posts: 2,245
For those who "need" more than 495 hp.... https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...llac-blackwing
__________________
2017 CAMARO FIFTY SS CONVERTIBLE
A8 | MRC | NPP | Nav | HUD |GM Performance CAI |Thinkware Q800 Pro front and rear dash cam | Charcoal Tint for Taillights and 3rd Brakelight | Orange and Carbon Fiber Bowties |Novistretch bra and mirror covers |Tow hitch for bicycle rack |


Martinjlm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2019, 07:12 AM   #755
6spdhyperblue

 
Drives: 6spd
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: US
Posts: 1,946
No turbo ecotecs? That would be a loss for mankind
6spdhyperblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2019, 09:31 AM   #756
SSport16


 
SSport16's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Garnet Red Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 5,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
For those who "need" more than 495 hp.... https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...llac-blackwing
The Z06 is going to one sick car! This is going to put super/hyper cars on serious notice!
__________________
2SS Camaro, Garnet Red, Adrenaline Red, NPP, MRC, A8, 5 Split Spoke Bright Silver Wheels (56W)

1100 Status - 7/24/15 (Ordered)
3800 Status - 10/13/15 (Built)
6000 Status - 12/22/15 (Delivered)
SSport16 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Post Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.