[BlueShadow]

Hello everyone,


I was wondering if anyone out there has tried a stock manifold with a bigger compressor housing? I know about the bigger wheels and even modified stock housings. But i wanted to know if a bigger compressor housing+stock turbine housing was possible on the stock manifold or if there are clearance issues or something.

[DatsunBob]

I have been interested in this as well. Biggest issue I see is the integrated recirc valve.

[BlueShadow]

Originally Posted by DatsunBob

I have been interested in this as well. Biggest issue I see is the integrated recirc valve.

There is the ZZP LTG ZFR turbo. Its supposed to bolt up to the stock exhaust manifold.


https://zzperformance.com/collection.../ltg-zfr-turbo

[DatsunBob]

Originally Posted by BlueShadow

There is the ZZP LTG ZFR turbo. Its supposed to bolt up to the stock exhaust manifold.


https://zzperformance.com/collection.../ltg-zfr-turbo

I'm well aware of all the current options. I actually have a ATS 2.0t so I've been at this engine platform longer than the Camaro has been out.

I had a stage 2 turbobay. The large wheel stuffed in there always made me wonder why not swap compressor housings too?

[BlueShadow]

Originally Posted by DatsunBob

I'm well aware of all the current options. I actually have a ATS 2.0t so I've been at this engine platform longer than the Camaro has been out.

I had a stage 2 turbobay. The large wheel stuffed in there always made me wonder why not swap compressor housings too?

yah...i kinda gave up on getting info for upgrading the stock turbo compressor housing. If i were still looking into it i'd probably get info from the DSM/EVO/WRX guys who have stock MHI turbos and have been doing the kind of stuff you and me are asking about but for a lot longer. Swapping one housing out for another and stuff like that.



Of course that still leaves out a bunch of camaro specific questions like clearance issues between the manifold+turbo and the block. But for that i dunno maybe you can look at the biggest housings that ZZP or Trifecta or whoever has ran on the stock manifold to see what the clearance looks like. The 7163 uses a BW turbo but afaik it bolts onto the the stock manifold and stock downpipe and just from eyeballing it the compressor housing looks much larger than the stock camaro turbo compressor.


During my research into the subject that was about as far as i got when i just said "screw it" and decided that i would just go with ZFR/Z54/7670 setup and that i would just ditch the entire stock turbo setup completely.

[BlueShadow]

Ohh and also, you've probably heard about MHI a few years ago saying they were going to come out with an upgrade for the Camaro. If you pause the video at 0:18 you can see the data sheet with the upgraded turbo on the left and the stock turbo on the right. So stock is a TD04-19T and it looks like the upgrade was supposed to be a TF06-18K. Compressor wheel mm was 75 exd and 55.1 ind. In the video starting at 0:38 you see a mockup of the turbo on an LTG block on an engine stand. I'll let you examine that on your own if you like so that you can see what the clearance looks like between the inner heatshield and the compressor. Not sure what all it would take to put a 18K compressor housing and wheel onto a stock Camaro turbine. But i thought i read somewhere that a TD04 turbine or CHRA for them could only be joined up to certain compressors that were also TD04 sized. Like i said the DSM/EVO/WRX people might know more about that since they swap housings and wheels all the time.


I started this thread almost a month ago and the first reply was you wanting to know the same thing. So i guess nobody has done this yet? The MHI upgrade either got cancelled or delayed or who knows what. But maybe the mockups can give you some ideas or maybe you can brainstorm with the DSM/EVO/WRX guys.

[BlueShadow]

also also....


I googled TF06-18K and its available as an upgrade for EVO IX and WRX. So looks like other cars have it as an upgrade but as far as the Camaro goes who knows. Plenty of info out there about its flow rate, wheel sizes, etc etc that you can google but i gotta go to bed. But here is one last link for the day that has pics, compressor maps, even schematics.


https://www.full-race.com/store/mits...ormance-turbo/

[wookwook]

There is stuff in here in very early threads. It is always best to state your goals first then the context of the conversation always works for the best. sounds like your looking for 500whp.

its just a different crowd here. Most of us, i might be the lone exception, are adverse to making mods while the car is under warranty. So when I frame my response as "the platform is too new" that is what I am referring to. The market hasn't quite gotten to the demand for shops to get this stuff in the pipeline yet.

My opinion is there are a couple of issues. first is the inherent strength of the motor. I know ATS ppl have much more experience at it, and leaves many wondering why looking at the camaro threads are any better info esp concerning heavy mods like the turbo. If your gonna fit the engine up with mad internals and post the play by play we are here to applaud and cheer you on.

For me. Having done a relatively very small increase in the turbo (td04 +4mm) with the zzp big wheel has added more than I was expecting with all said and done. I have the magical 400hp (hp tuners logs) and wasn't even trying. That said, I have learned more about tuning this thing for - longevity- probably more than 2 or 3 of us on here that I know of. Putting on the brakes so to say before anything major does do just that.

If the ZZP ZFR doesn't do it, I just don't know what will. add e85, mw and nitrous and your in group of 1. Just take references about shops picking up pieces of the motor seriously.

Yeah bummer you can buy a complete manifold system (wrx,evo) with the big turbo for the same $ as the zfr, but in the end you just don't need the whole works for it to pull huge numbers. Certainly more power than the stock internals and M6 are rated for.

Hope that is informative.
W.

[BlueShadow]

Originally Posted by DatsunBob

why not swap compressor housings too?

So anyways...I did just as tiny bit of searching tonight. I think the 19T compressor housing, the one the Camaro has, is the biggest housing/wheel that is usually paired up with a TD04 turbine. It seems like the reason that you dont see the TD04 paired with bigger compressor housings is just turbos 101. I've seen posts to the effect of: 'ohh egt/cylinder temps will be too high' or that the compressor will flow more or flow too much and that the turbine side is acting as a restriction (the reason for higher EGT/cylinder temps?). So back to turbo 101...what happens when you take a compressor wheel or housing that is too big for a turbine? I think 08 and up WRX also run a 19T stock turbo. I wonder if they also have similar heat related issues like what Camaro's have?


I do have a copy of Corky Bell's Maximum Boost though i dont remember if this was touched on in there. But bedtime is soon for me and i'm still 3-5 years away from doing anything to my car anyways. But maybe the stuff i mentioned is a good starting place to look?

[BlueShadow]

I had posted this question up on another car forums forced induction subforum a few days after i posted on here. Based on all the posts i was seeing from my google searches i figured that the turbine ends up being a restriction when running too high of a compressor wheel/housing or even just raising the boost when the turbo is already running a pretty high boost setting. The people on the other car forum kinda confirmed that with the turbine being a restriction. I was digging around YT just now looking for engine teardown videos and i saw an ecoboost video saying something similar. They were running a stock turbo but on a higher boost setting i think. The guy said that what ends up happening is called "exhaust reversion". In the video below at around 4:10 onwards is where he starts talking about that. The car was also running E85 and i guess E85 has a much higher exhaust gas density when compared to regular 91-93 gas.

[wookwook]

if your trying to install a windmill of course you can get reversion. when i started looking at compressor maps for the turbo bay units, even with my uneducated eye you can see the inefficiencies in the compressor map pretty easily on bigger compressors. for what its worth, i also decided to stay with the h6 turbine with the billet wheel specifically for the weight reduction. its about volume AND pressure. My DD has great road manners and has a steady power ramp, that was my goal. the only major complaint about the stock turbo seems to be the airmass fall off at 4.6k to 4.8k. It seems I have posted stuff all over here with logs and there's a bunch of stuff to see if you know what your looking for. Its not hard at all to build your own tower of power with high lag, spiked power curve, and less HP than stock at 5K.

after i peeled away the onion of tuning parameters the setup just kept on giving and giving and all of a sudden I'm logging 400 hp and 430 tq. I also did my own cam tuning. All I'm saying is everything vague is subjective. If you know what you want for a power curve, reach out to the big 3 tuner shops on here and get their opinions on how to set it up.

[BlueShadow]

Originally Posted by wookwook

if your trying to install a windmill of course you can get reversion.

I'm just pointing out that reversion might also be possible when running a "windmill" AND possibly a stock unit on higher boost and that E85 might just make it worse instead of better. That's all according to the guy in the video.

Originally Posted by wookwook

when i started looking at compressor maps for the turbo bay units, even with my uneducated eye you can see the inefficiencies in the compressor map pretty easily on bigger compressors.

Maximum Boost by Corky Bell covers how to use those maps. Lots of online sites have even made calculators to make the process a lot easier. I used to size turbos just for practice for Honda B18C and H22 engines. Though i imagine that shops go off of past experience when it comes to turbo sizing. Basically what you do is calculate the engines basic flow rate, then you multiply it by the pressure ratio to figure out flow rate under boost. Then you factor in things like temperature and pressure loss, etc etc which would also affect your flow rate. Then you plot a line representing your adjusted flow rate across your rpm band. Kinda like how a dyno tuning session plots rpm and power across a chart. But for a compressor map you're plotting rpm and flow rate onto a compressor map to let you know what efficiency ranges you are falling into based on what boost pressure (pressure ratio) you will be running. Its been a really long time since i've messed with any of that stuff but thats the basic gist of it.


Another thing worth mentioning is since we are messing with MHI turbos, last time i checked (which was about 20 years ago) compressor maps for MHI turbos were REALLY hard to find. And not only that but while most maps used cfm or lb/min MHI maps used kg/m.

[BlueShadow]

Here is an example of a turbo selection calculator i was talking about if you want to learn more about compressor map stuff. But you would need to know a lot of stuff about your engine in order to use it. When i was doing all those practice tests on compressor selection on Honda H22 engines it was because some engineering site did a study to figure out its volumetric efficiency. So based on that i just used slightly different VE% for other Honda engines.


But you're charting your different RPM points and then the calculator overlays those on a blank spreadsheet. You then select the background image of the appropriate compressor map to see where you lie in the efficiency ranges for that compressor.


http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/afterma...6_wrsin=92044&

[wookwook]

explains why my trying to understand it petered out. it seems like every corner of this market has their own language. I was looking at the shop wheel sizes and kind of guesstimated the pressure map. with the stock wheel the p/r goes pretty cleanly up the ridge, meaning no lag. others being talked about take a side path up the map an cross a higher peak, but at the expense of low end performance. I think that is the emphasize I focused on was low end response even as a compromise to total boost. cause you can always get power adder in E85. But I was focused on increasing the high end air mass and VE. With this DA its pretty amazing right now.


edit: I saw borgbot before too but would have been nice to know how to work it.
to the VE, I did an optimization project to combine 2 Tubro Pids with CAM timing which has some heavy duty math itself.

I'm hitting air mass and VE of larger turbo projects using my billet wheel and probably better low end and peak gains.

from what I have been able to compare to.



I'm just waiting for it to turn summer track time and turn the WM system up!