[Syclone1LE]

and I'm still doesn't matter, cuz you have to buy the Shelby to get a transmission doesn't break every time you shift but then you get us stuck with a crank that breaks in half, not to mention the rear axles GM's putting down the same numbers on non r compound rubber and a skinnier Tire with less side wall, not to mention car and drivers times aren't that credible only to a certain extent none of them are pro drivers and all the cars are driven by different people not everyone gets to drive every car, even then you can't compete with the one man Wonder, although I wish roadandtrack would use a longer but just as diverse of a track as Laguna Seca

[SpeedIsLife]

The only thing I could think about when I read those last two posts was a dog trying to drink out of a sprinkler..

WHARGARBL

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

You're cute , but you don't strike me as the kind of guy that has to worry about over-reving his engine much. I think you'd be safe with the Voodoo.

You are correct that Ford could have made a great track car without the FPC it just wouldn't be as much fun to drive.

How so? Why?

The noise? Ever hear the 5.2L CPC Aluminator at high RPM? It doesn't sound exactly like the FPC Voodoo, but it sounds very, very close. That engine also makes some competitive power compared to the Voodoo.

You know, the Voodoo gets all these accolades for the FPC design and sound, but the heads and intake that were designed for that engine got, and still get, overlooked in all of this, until as of recent.

Don't worry about the Voodoo's reliability - "That's what the warranty is for"

If Ford made the GT350 CPC, I would own one right now and not a 1LE.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Copied directly from the C&D article....

"In addition to the aforementioned, the PPL2’s $6500 upcharge over a base GT buys a front splitter, a unique spoiler, a larger radiator, a trio of chassis-stiffening braces, and retuned suspension, steering, and anti-lock-braking logic to play nice with the Cup 2 tires. But with no differential cooler, the rear axle overheated every time we took the Mustang out, often in as few as three hot laps, and even with easy laps staggered between them. So there is one thing it needs besides a proper name."

You done?

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I guess you'll just have to have your interpretation and I'll have mine.

And they could have cut the costs down by a lot. The GT350 was the most impractical and foolhardy endeavor Ford has done in a long time.

Nonsense. What was soo fun about the Shelby that couldn't have been done in the GT? We already see the HP the 5.0 is up to. With the GT350 IM and TB it makes even more and can rev up over 7500 RPMs. They could have designed the GT better, ditched that expensive Voodoo engine, kept the CF wheels (or scrapped them to save even more money), threw a better set of OPGs in it, gave it the GT350 IM/TB, and then hit it with some coolers. It would actually have been better than the Shelby if they did that. The GT350 IMO is the most useless, expensive, car that Ford built which could have been built much cheaper.

Well Blaq, I don't want to disagree with you just to disagree with you, but the way I read the quote from C&D, Fast Car FanBoy's interpretation seems to be the same way I see it. Like they did hot lap, easy lap, hot lap but that is just trivial at this point.

Now on your comments on the 350. I agree and disagree with you at the same time. A lot of the stuff we see with the GT being so much better than it was in 15 , is trickle down from the 350 so it wasn't 100% useless. But with where the 5.0 is now performance wise I am leaning more to your side that the 350 is pretty much obsolete. I personally think Ford should have canned it after 18. Just go without a "HALO" model till the 500 shows up.

Sure there are still going to be people that buy it just because of the name or the voodoo. So I disagree that the Shelby was useless, it served its purpose, GT has already gotten trickle down benefits from it. So I agree now, I don't really see a point for the 350 to stick around.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Mountain

How so? Why?

The noise? Ever hear the 5.2L CPC Aluminator at high RPM? It doesn't sound exactly like the FPC Voodoo, but it sounds very, very close. That engine also makes some competitive power compared to the Voodoo.

You know, the Voodoo gets all these accolades for the FPC design and sound, but the heads and intake that were designed for that engine got, and still get, overlooked in all of this, until as of recent.

Don't worry about the Voodoo's reliability - "That's what the warranty is for"

If Ford made the GT350 CPC, I would own one right now and not a 1LE.

Very well said! I think a lot of people associate the FPC with high revving, and it just isnt the case. My CPC revs to 8,250.

I too will trade up once a reliable high revving CPC engine is created that turns out more power than my little 4.0L S65.

[DP1320]

Implementing an auxiliary/track cooling system for the powertrain and drivetrain takes investment and planning [ahead]. Camaro G6 did it and Mustang G6 didn’t - not even for the PP1, PP2 or first year none-TP GT350’s (stupid move by Ford wherein they marketed the car as “the most track capable Mustang”).

So, what does that tell you about the Mustang G6 if there wasn't planning for the potential of additional/special parts (i.e. try to save space adhead of time in early development/ammortize design with other variants like they did for the Boss 302*) and that they are reluctant to invest in the development, parts and assembly for their special “performance” variants that are track-oriented?


Getrag MT-82 vs Tremec TR-6060/TR-3160...

Recaros that are nearly the same design for almost 10 years...

An IRS based off FWD vehicles...


I’m talking about the performance models hear - not the main offerings (which makes no business sense for those cars). They have the sales, right? You’d think a business case could be made, if planned correctly [ahead of time].

If you want a Mustang G6 that is built for the track you have to find a GT350, pay ADM and live with a questionably reliable engine.



*Ford saved space on the S197, while implementing the 5.0L G1 Coyote for an oil cooler, thinking ahead for the Boss 302. In addition, they “ammoritized the design” for the Boss 302 (2012) lower front end, by rolling-in the lower front end design into the GT/CS. There's room behind the S550 front end to mount coolers - it could've been done.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

You're cute , but you don't strike me as the kind of guy that has to worry about over-reving his engine much. I think you'd be safe with the Voodoo.

You are correct that Ford could have made a great track car without the FPC it just wouldn't be as much fun to drive.

You really don't know what the overrev feature was? Of course, Ford withdrew it. But it shows there was concern from the beginning..IMO

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Well Blaq, I don't want to disagree with you just to disagree with you, but the way I read the quote from C&D, Fast Car FanBoy's interpretation seems to be the same way I see it. Like they did hot lap, easy lap, hot lap but that is just trivial at this point.

LOL, that is what I said. They did 3 laps. Lap 1 was a hot lap, lap 2 was an easy lap, and lap 3 was a hot lap where it overheated. FCFB is saying they did 3 hot laps and it overheated, then they did an easy lap followed by 3 more hot laps with it overheating on the 3rd again. Or at least that is what it sounds like he is saying. Simply put.

1st lap (hot lap) - Car ran fine.
2nd lap (easy lap) - Car ran fine.
3rd lap (hot lap) - Car overheated.

FCFB is saying
1st lap (hot lap) - Car ran fine.
2nd lap (hot lap) - Car ran fine.
3rd lap (hot lap) - Car overheated.

Or...
1st lap (hot lap) - Car ran fine.
2nd lap (easy lap)
3rd lap (2nd hot lap) - Car ran fine.
4th lap (easy lap)
5th lap (3rd hot lap) - Car overheated.

Now I don't know where in hell FCFB is getting his interpretation from but to me it seems very unreasonable.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Now on your comments on the 350. I agree and disagree with you at the same time. A lot of the stuff we see with the GT being so much better than it was in 15 , is trickle down from the 350 so it wasn't 100% useless. But with where the 5.0 is now performance wise I am leaning more to your side that the 350 is pretty much obsolete. I personally think Ford should have canned it after 18. Just go without a "HALO" model till the 500 shows up.

Sure there are still going to be people that buy it just because of the name or the voodoo. So I disagree that the Shelby was useless, it served its purpose, GT has already gotten trickle down benefits from it. So I agree now, I don't really see a point for the 350 to stick around.

The problem I see is that the GT350's very existence is what has held the GT and the S550 platform back as a whole. I say that because if they stopped production of the GT350 in 2018 then they would be able to build the GT PP2 properly. BUT...it would still piss off Shelby owners who spent an arm and a leg and markups on the "Halo" Mustang just to have the GT beat it a year later for a much lower price and NO markups. So there is no way around the GT350. It is here and Ford can't completely eclipse it's performance everywhere especially since the A10 GT already beats it in a straight line. If it wasn't here then it would be a slap in the face after people spent all that money buying one. Now if it never existed and we just had the GT and the GT500, then Ford could have put the GT PP2 on GT350R performance level and then had the GT500 to take on the ZL1 which would have made it a proper battle that could go either way. But that isn't how things are and it's a shame if you ask me. So when I made that statement about the GT350, I think it just happened as a bad timing or bad luck thing. GM just happened to get out of the NA Z28 type BS right on time and Ford went ahead with the NA GT350 thing which put a limit on what they could do with the GT.

Now before anyone says that Shelby owners don't care about performance, we all know that is bullshit. Nobody buys these cars just so a lower trim that costs $20K less can come along and match or beat it. To me Ford is clearly trying to keep the GT and all versions of it or anything less than a Shelby beneath the GT350 at least around a track. And it is because they don't wanna step on toes.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

LOL, that is what I said. They did 3 laps. Lap 1 was a hot lap, lap 2 was an easy lap, and lap 3 was a hot lap where it overheated. FCFB is saying they did 3 hot laps and it overheated, then they did an easy lap followed by 3 more hot laps with it overheating on the 3rd again. Or at least that is what it sounds like he is saying. Simply put.

1st lap (hot lap) - Car ran fine.
2nd lap (easy lap) - Car ran fine.
3rd lap (hot lap) - Car overheated.

FCFB is saying
1st lap (hot lap) - Car ran fine.
2nd lap (hot lap) - Car ran fine.
3rd lap (hot lap) - Car overheated.

Or...
1st lap (hot lap) - Car ran fine.
2nd lap (easy lap)
3rd lap (2nd hot lap) - Car ran fine.
4th lap (easy lap)
5th lap (3rd hot lap) - Car overheated.

Now I don't know where in hell FCFB is getting his interpretation from but to me it seems very unreasonable.

The problem I see is that the GT350's very existence is what has held the GT and the S550 platform back as a whole. I say that because if they stopped production of the GT350 in 2018 then they would be able to build the GT PP2 properly. BUT...it would still piss off Shelby owners who spent an arm and a leg and markups on the "Halo" Mustang just to have the GT beat it a year later for a much lower price and NO markups. So there is no way around the GT350. It is here and Ford can't completely eclipse it's performance everywhere especially since the A10 GT already beats it in a straight line. If it wasn't here then it would be a slap in the face after people spent all that money buying one. Now if it never existed and we just had the GT and the GT500, then Ford could have put the GT PP2 on GT350R performance level and then had the GT500 to take on the ZL1 which would have made it a proper battle that could go either way. But that isn't how things are and it's a shame if you ask me. So when I made that statement about the GT350, I think it just happened as a bad timing or bad luck thing. GM just happened to get out of the NA Z28 type BS right on time and Ford went ahead with the NA GT350 thing which put a limit on what they could do with the GT.

Now before anyone says that Shelby owners don't care about performance, we all know that is bullshit. Nobody buys these cars just so a lower trim that costs $20K less can come along and match or beat it. To me Ford is clearly trying to keep the GT and all versions of it or anything less than a Shelby beneath the GT350 at least around a track. And it is because they don't wanna step on toes.

LOL then yeah I agree with your interpretation on the laps. That is the way I read it.

On the 350. I think now at this point in time I would have to agree with you it seems to be holding back the GT. When it first came out it was clear they were using the top end Mustang to test new things out, something Ford has always done. The 350 had its purpose, served its purpose, but now I think we can see it has outlived it purpose. It should have been put out to pasture and just let the GT reap the benefits of the 350's development. We have seen the GT do just that, but not to the 100% it should, because like you said it does seem they are protecting the 350.

Now if the 350 was cancelled in 18 and they did the PP2 right I honestly don't know how many owners would care honestly. that is the way Ford has done things, they are ruthless when it comes to improvements in the same generation lol. 2010 still had the 4.6 3V then boom 2011 5.0. Even the GT500. Had 500, then they came out with the KR which had 540. And the next year after the KR was done, all GT500s had 540. Then they went to 550, then 662. Now I know these aren't "lower" models outperforming top end models but its been par for the course for Ford. Hell I wouldn't be surprised to see the Bullitt engine become the standard GT engine once the Bullit is done. (which happened in 09. bullitt 3V was 315HP, then in 10 the GT had 315). That is just what Ford does.

I think there are a lot more people than you think that buy a Shelby just because it has the name. Hell one of my dad's buddies from high school who hasn't bought a new car since the 70s rushed out to buy a GT500 when they came out in 07 pretty much just because it had Shelby name on it and was rumored at the time to be a 2 or 3 year production run. people go gaga over the Shelby name. Just like in the 5th gen I am sure there were people that bought a Z/28 with no intention of ever tracking it, but it was a Z/28 that stayed true to the originals roots. Or people that bought Demon's with no intention of ever racing it, just to say they have the most powerful muscle car and all it does is sit in the garage or go to cars n coffee. Hell some people buy them just because it's the highest trim and they don't know any better.


Now back to the point, I agree with you. They are protecting the 350 which is even more reason they should have just let it finish out production in 18 and built the best GT they can. ( which I believe they will when the Bullitt is done. I wouldn't be shocked to see what essentially comes down to being a PP2 with a Bullitt engine as a 2020 model)

[joe944]

It's obvious they did one hot lap then an easy lap then a hard lap, etc.

So they *had* to take an easy lap after 1 hot lap, since it would overheat on the second lap if they kept going. Could it even complete one Ring lap without overheating? Doubt it.

It *also* overheated on the 3rd hot, or 5th overall, lap.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Now if the 350 was cancelled in 18 and they did the PP2 right I honestly don't know how many owners would care honestly. that is the way Ford has done things, they are ruthless when it comes to improvements in the same generation lol. 2010 still had the 4.6 3V then boom 2011 5.0. Even the GT500. Had 500, then they came out with the KR which had 540. And the next year after the KR was done, all GT500s had 540. Then they went to 550, then 662. Now I know these aren't "lower" models outperforming top end models but its been par for the course for Ford. Hell I wouldn't be surprised to see the Bullitt engine become the standard GT engine once the Bullit is done. (which happened in 09. bullitt 3V was 315HP, then in 10 the GT had 315). That is just what Ford does.

I think there are a lot more people than you think that buy a Shelby just because it has the name. Hell one of my dad's buddies from high school who hasn't bought a new car since the 70s rushed out to buy a GT500 when they came out in 07 pretty much just because it had Shelby name on it and was rumored at the time to be a 2 or 3 year production run. people go gaga over the Shelby name. Just like in the 5th gen I am sure there were people that bought a Z/28 with no intention of ever tracking it, but it was a Z/28 that stayed true to the originals roots. Or people that bought Demon's with no intention of ever racing it, just to say they have the most powerful muscle car and all it does is sit in the garage or go to cars n coffee. Hell some people buy them just because it's the highest trim and they don't know any better.

We had this discussion before and I do agree that Ford has at times one-upped their cars but never with the GT. At least not the GT eclipsing a Shelby. And definitely not within the same Gen. I doubt Ford could get away with that otherwise they would have done it. Sure they upped the 2011 GT from the 2010 but that was a mid-Gen refresh also. The S197 had already been out for 5 MYs and they had the 2010 SS show up with 426 HP (LS3) which whomped them. So they had to do something. So I don't think many people were sore about that. Same with the 13 GT500 from the 12 GT500. The ZL1 was coming with 580 HP vs the then current GT500's 550 HP. And the ZL1 had lots of other options like IRS which the GT500 did not have. SO they had to do something to keep their fans happy. Hence the 13 GT500 with 663 HP. Not many 2012 Shelby owners were upset because a lot of them were still buying 12s. I'm not counting the Bullitt because that is just a GT that is slightly upgraded with intake/exhaust/tune/cosmetic stuff. But if Ford had eclipsed the GT350 with the GT PP2 just one year after people paid huge money for what is supposed to be the Halo car, I think it would have caused an uproar. That much is evident by the fact that Ford is not trying to eclipse the GT350 at all. They clearly could have with the PP2. But then, why exactly did the GT350 need CF wheels and the expensive FPC engine if the GT PP2 beat it without all of that in the same Gen? I don't see any way they could have done so without pissing people off.

[metros11]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Funny how many in here wanted to see the PP2 in this Lightning Lap with the hopeful anticipation of a poor showing. Well that didn't happen it solidly beat the 1LEs time. Your just going to have to deal with it the same way you have to deal with the A10 GT is faster than the SS in 0-60, 1/4, and top end.

Yeah, I'm bummed. I absolutely wanted the PP2 to fall flat on it's face, because I was cross shopping a PP2 vs 1LE and ended up with a 1LE. Now this 1 second advantage, run on one track, over a year apart, by different non-pro drivers, will most certainly be etched in my memory for eternity. Eating away at doubt and regret of buying a 1LE. The hype is real, should have bought a "track optimized" PP2...

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

even same day, same driver the results can vary substantially based on what time of the day the runs were made

This X about 1000. Anyone who's been on the track knows this. When running endurance events it's typically our first driver for the day that sets the fastest laps, the rest of us are just chasing the bragging rights. The only hope typically is a passing shower to cool down the track.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by metros11

Yeah, I'm bummed. I absolutely wanted the PP2 to fall flat on it's face, because I was cross shopping a PP2 vs 1LE and ended up with a 1LE. Now this 1 second advantage, run on one track, over a year apart, by different non-pro drivers, will most certainly be etched in my memory for eternity. Eating away at doubt and regret of buying a 1LE. The hype is real, should have bought a "track optimized" PP2...


This X about 1000. Anyone who's been on the track knows this. When running endurance events it's typically our first driver for the day that sets the fastest laps, the rest of us are just chasing the bragging rights. The only hope typically is a passing shower to cool down the track.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by metros11

Yeah, I'm bummed. I absolutely wanted the PP2 to fall flat on it's face, because I was cross shopping a PP2 vs 1LE and ended up with a 1LE. Now this 1 second advantage, run on one track, over a year apart, by different non-pro drivers, will most certainly be etched in my memory for eternity. Eating away at doubt and regret of buying a 1LE. The hype is real, should have bought a "track optimized" PP2...


This X about 1000. Anyone who's been on the track knows this. When running endurance events it's typically our first driver for the day that sets the fastest laps, the rest of us are just chasing the bragging rights. The only hope typically is a passing shower to cool down the track.

You are correct had they lined up on the same day same time the beating may have been worse at least for the first 3 laps.